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An Argument Against Elbows to the Head of a Downed Opponent

Before I begin to elucidate my assertion that elbows to the head of a downed opponent should be outlawed in MMA, let me address some inevitable criticism.  I am not a fighter; I have never fought.  I have not trained in any martial art, outside of grade school.  Such a lack of a resume inevitably invites the "you don't fight, what the hell do you know?" criticism from purists who have been blogging about MMA since strikes to the groin were legal.  I am aware that blogs and the internet are one of the driving forces of MMA as they originally provided a forum in which athletes in a sport shunned by society could come together as an international community uniquely able to understand the hardships of the fighting life.  However, as MMA has become "mainstream" in the United States, so have many of these sites once only inhabited by the men and women paving the way for the stars of today.  While I sympathize with those who believe something of theirs has been bastardized, this attitude does nothing to promote the sport so that the men and women who put their livelihoods on the line each time they enter the cage or ring; it is the "casual" or new fan that allows for fighters to be paid an equitable wage for the risk they assume.  And it is the popularizing of the sport that invites mainstream media criticism, which in turn validates the sport.  While I am certainly not saying that I am Bob Costas or Mike Lupica, but whenever they make an assertion about a sport, player, league, etc., are they asked when was the last time they took a hit from a linebacker?  I think not.  So, while I invite criticism, preferably the constructive kind, regarding my opinions and points, I respectfully ask that the "you don't fight" criticism be left out.

Star-divide

Perhaps the most obvious argument against elbow strikes to the head of a downed opponent is that those strikes make cuts that, although they are bloody, do not significantly damage the fighter who takes the blow.  All too often, fights are stopped due to these cuts.  And, when the fight is not stopped, the blood that may pour from a cut (to the scalp, for example) can make the fighters slippery and make it more difficult for a grappler to submit an opponent.  Or the blood can effect a fighter's vision.  Or the fight may have to be repeatedly stopped to clear the blood from a fighter's eye.  Of course cuts happen in fights, but the cuts I am most referring to are the ones incurred when the fighter with top position cannot pass his opponent's guard.  Allowing these blows makes it more valuable to be able to sit in someone's guard that it is to control and neutralize the fighter on top from the bottom.  In my opinion, it shows more athletic ability and martial arts acumen to be able to stop a trained fighter from being able to pass your guard than it does to land a short elbow while laying on someone.  I will get more into this thought soon.

 

That a wrestling background is the most easily convertible to a successful MMA career, particularly in the US, is an almost universally agreed upon conclusion.  Former high level collegiate wrestlers dominate the MMA landscape, past and present, and compiling a list of some of the best of them would be an exhaustive task.  Just a few examples, of course, are Brock Lesnar, Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Rashad Evans and Sean Sherk.  Wrestlers have several advantages, including core strength, mastering weight cutting, and the ability to take a fight to the mat, where they are often most comfortable.  Some side effects from the proponderance of dominant wrestlers, though, have become endemic to MMA.  All too often, dominant wrestlers make the move to MMA too quickly, without the time or inclination to develop their striking or submission game.  As opposed to MMA in Japan, for instance, where the quality of the fight and the "fighter's spirit" demonstrated in combat are often as or more important than the victor in the fight (and, consequently, records mean less), American society assigns value almost exclusively to winning.  Losing, then, is befit only of "losers". 

 

One result on our focus on records and wrestlers' ability to grind out fights without a well rounded MMA game is "lay and pray" (LNP).  A LNP, wrestling based fighter takes his opponent down, puts himself in a position from which it is difficult to be submitted, and does just enough not to warrant a stand up.  An elbow to the head of his opponent is one of the best tools in his limited tool box to make sure that the fight is not stood up.  Because small hammer fists do not usually do enough damage to merit a referee allowing a stagnant fight to continue on the ground, the LNPer may throw a short elbow that results in one of the cuts discussed previously, validating his corner's claim that he is being productive in that position.  Three rounds later, the LNPer has the "W" on his record, while the "loser" in the fight may be no worse for wear.

 

Elbows in a closed guard distort the value of what should be a neutral position.  In a fight between evenly matched, well rounded fighters, the fighter on the bottom should be considered to be in a position from which he can end the fight, just as the top fighter is.  For the reasons already discussed, though, elbows tilt the balance to the top position.  If elbows were disallowed, it could be legislated that the full guard is a neutral position and that fight will be stood up if the fighter on top does not attempt to improve his position or the fighter on the bottom does not attempt any offensive maneuvers within a reasonable period of time.  This would not only give guidance to referees, but judges as well.  A take down that results in a quick stand up because the top fighter cannot mount any offense would be discredited.  Allowing a take down to facilitate a submission attempt would "score points".

 

I realize that most of my points have been at the detriment of wrestlers and to the advantage of submission fighters.  To a certain degree, that is true, although the rule change would be to the benefit of strikers as well.  If a striker was taken down and could neutralize the top fighter and not allow him to pass guard, the fight would be stood up, after all.  Wrestlers have some advantages inherent to the sport from which they came, not the least of which is their ability to cut weight.  By the time they get to, for instance, the UFC, they have been doing it for many years.  There have been calls for same day weigh-ins to curb excessive weight cutting, a suggestion about which I am agnostic.  The other side argues that "boxers cut just as much weight".  That argument is debunked by saying that boxers fight other boxers.  Mixed Martial Artists, however, fight opponents with various backgrounds for which weight cutting may not have been as integral a skill.  One fight I look at as proof of this point is the Lyoto Machida and Tito Ortiz fight.  Although Machida won, he was clearly the smaller man.  It is hard to imagine that the discrepancy has to do with anything other than Tito's ability to shed a significant amount of water weight.

 

The fact is that throughout the history of sports, rules change to neutralize certain advantages.  After years of dominance by pitchers in baseball, major league baseball lowered the pitching mound in 1969.  In football, defensive backs once were able to make contact with receivers down the field.  When the league wanted to free up the passing game, such contact was deemed illegal. 

 

There are many voices within the MMA community, both professional and online, that are resistant to change.  Sadly, I believe it has less to do with athletic integrity and more to do with blood lust.  Many fans are attracted to the bloody messes that fights, such as BJ Penn and Joe Stevenson's, become.  In many ways, they are these fights (and fans) that make MMA so easy to label as "barbaric" or whatever some misinformed politician calls it today.  However, it is also this desire for blood that keeps some fans shelling out the $50 for a PPV or buying tickets.  While this revenue stream makes the UFC stronger in the short term, one must wonder about the long term viability of a sport that is torn between athletic integrity and appealing to our most base instincts.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read all the way through this.  I look forward to your comments.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

2 recs | Comment 18 comments

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So part of the reason you want elbows to the head banned is because it makes it too easy to pass the guard? Lets take out punches too while we are at it.

Removing elbows will not prevent LnP. There have been plenty of fights where fighters have LnPed with little use of elbows. To generalize that elbows are the whole reason for LnP and removal of elbows would be the solution to prevent LnP is naive. LnP is a problem with the fighters who do little as well as(and this is integral) a problem with the referees. There is no standard to what is considered being active on the ground. Some refs let the LnP go on for too long while others stand up too early.

All too often, fights are stopped due to these cuts.

Fights stopped due to cuts in the past year, by event
UFC 91-0
UFC 90-0
UFC 89-0
UFC 88-0
UFC 87-0
UFC 86-0
UFC 85-0
UFC 84-0
UFC 83-0
UFC 82-0
UFC 81-0
UFC 80-0


but the cuts I am most referring to are the ones incurred when the fighter with top position cannot pass his opponent’s guard. Allowing these blows makes it more valuable to be able to sit in someone’s guard that it is to control and neutralize the fighter on top from the bottom. In my opinion, it shows more athletic ability and martial arts acumen to be able to stop a trained fighter from being able to pass your guard than it does to land a short elbow while laying on someone.

opinions are like assholes… Its just as hard to land an elbow from the top than it is to defend an elbow from the bottom. If it’ a fighter’s desire to stay in the guard and try and do damage from there, that is their prerogative. So long as they are actively working to do damage it’s ok.

Your third paragraph has no relevance to the topic of elbows and why they should be banned. Your sixth paragraph also has no relevance to elbows, only to wrestlers and weight cutting.

There have been calls for same day weigh-ins to curb excessive weight cutting,

Not really. There has been a call amongst people who aren’t familiar with wrestling. Amateur wrestlers have to weigh in the day of the matches anyways so having day of weigh ins wouldn’t do anything to deter weight cutting.

Elbows can be used from the bottom of the closed guard too(Look at a perfect example Silva/Lutter) its just an underutilized technique because too many fighters think that the closed guard is a strictly defensive position. More fighters need to take the initiative to break down the other fighter’s posture and then use elbows or short punches if they are not looking for sweeps or submissions.

For every Stevenson/Penn fight there are 30 fights that are not bloody, so blood lust is a pretty lame excuse to want to remove elbows. Try to think of some really bloody fights. You’ll be hard pressed to find a large amount of really(or even moderately bloody fights) bloody fights to back up your ‘bloodlust’ point. Try thinking of a fight on the blood level of Penn/Stevenson (or one that is even close to it) but more recent….

A desire for blood is not why I order UFC events. The reason I order is to see great fights. If there is blood it doesn’t increase my interest in the fight. If this were 1993 then I’d agree about the bloodlust because of how violent NHB fights were, but in todays game blood is not the selling point of the fight

by Discman2 on Dec 25, 2008 4:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I do not want elbows disallowed because it makes it easier to pass, I want them disallowed because they give a reason not to pass at all. I’m not sure where you got that idea from. And the points discussing wrestling are to point out the inherent advantages that wrestlers have and how that, with rule modification, some of that could be neutralized to level the playing field to some degree.

Finally, if you are here, reading this post among or anything else on a site like this, I doubt you have a blood lust. The point is that there are people out there who are attracted to the blood, maybe above all else. And, you’re right, it’s not a reason to remove elbows. It’s one of many reasons that they will not be removed because they drive consumers.

by Drewplata on Dec 25, 2008 4:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice post..

..even though I personally disagree with the entire premise. ;)

To me, the guard should be considered a neutral position, as is, because the guy on the bottom has a chance to quickly end the fight if he is able to catch his opponent making a mistake, and the guy on top can throw elbows and short strikes to inflict damage and control the fight.

To me, MMA is a combat sport, and as such it shouldn’t be about ‘scoring points’ so much as actually ‘winning a fight.’ A guy who can defend submissions while inside his opponent’s guard, and deal damage at the same time is quite literally winning a fight. He’s not being hurt, and he’s hurting his opponent, while completely controlling the terrain of the battle. There really isn’t a more clear definition of victory in combat, absent the utter defeat/submission of your opponent.

I also disagree that blood sells fights. Does the UFC acknowledge it in their promotional materials? Of course they do. Do all combat sports promoters do likewise? Of course they do. Drawing blood is perhaps the clearest outcome of an exchange that damage has been done. With shorter fights, and fewer total strikes thrown per minute, a cut in MMA is not as devastating as a cut in boxing. Not even close. But it is still symbolic of combat being met by opponents, and as such I don’t think we should get too worried about its appearance (either incidental or intentional) in fights.

Well thought out post, though. Good discussion.

p.s. I’d be all for disallowing elbows to the head of a downed opponent if they’d re-instate knees to the head of a downed opponent ;)

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Dec 25, 2008 9:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the points discussing wrestling are to point out the inherent advantages that wrestlers have and how that, with rule modification, some of that could be neutralized to level the playing field to some degree.
That higher mounds give pitchers an advantage is another established fact.

This is not baseball where one person has to pitch and the other person has to hit. This is MMA and is defined by skills. If someone does not have the skill of wrestling, there is no sound argument as to why they should be awared something in the rules to their benefit.

Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?

by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 25, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In my opinion, it shows more athletic ability and martial arts acumen to be able to stop a trained fighter from being able to pass your guard than it does to land a short elbow while laying on someone.

What about the athletic ability and martial arts acumen to stop a trained fighter from elbowing you in the face?
Where is the person being layed on and prayed on? Do they not also have a moral imperative to finish the fight? Should they not be looking for a way to submit or scramble? If they can’t deal with someone on them — tough shit. That is the sport.

Watch St. Pierre v Sherk and listen to Sherk’s gurgled yell as GSP lands a “short elbow”. Or, in St. Pierre vs. Hughes II, Big John only stopped the fight after GSP’s “short elbows”.

Elbows do more than just cut. They are not just a tool “to make sure that the fight is not stood up”.

All too often, fights are stopped due to these cuts.

The goal is to make your oppenent unable to continue.

And, when the fight is not stopped, the blood that may pour from a cut (to the scalp, for example) can make the fighters slippery and make it more difficult for a grappler to submit an opponent.

So?

Or the blood can effect a fighter’s vision.

I agree.

Elbows in a closed guard distort the value of what should be a neutral position. In a fight between evenly matched, well rounded fighters, the fighter on the bottom should be considered to be in a position from which he can end the fight, just as the top fighter is. For the reasons already discussed, though, elbows tilt the balance to the top position.

What about elbows from the bottom? They can still elbow as well.

Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?

by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 25, 2008 4:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the goal of a fight is to make someone unable to continue, why are knees to the head of a downed opponent illegal? Groin shots? Why are there gloves? MMA has blossomed because it has become a regulated environment in which athletes compete within boundaries. I am only presenting another regulation.

And, the efficacy of the elbows is not in question here. That they can cause massive damage is an established fact. That higher mounds give pitchers an advantage is another established fact. I am proposing that a weapon be taken away from one side, to enable the other.

by Drewplata on Dec 25, 2008 5:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the goal of a fight is to make someone unable to continue, why are knees to the head of a downed opponent illegal?


Because of this

Groin shots are cheap and require absolutely no skill to do. Besides that a well placed groin stike can severely injure a person. Gloves are to protect the fighters hands. This isn’t NHB, this is MMA. You are really trying to nitpick against things that are not comparable to elbow strikes.

by Discman2 on Dec 25, 2008 5:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Keep telling yourself that the rule changes were for the fighters’ protection, not to increase marketability and the odds of being sanctioned in more states.

by Drewplata on Dec 25, 2008 7:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So Larry Hazzard, the State Athletic Commissioner of New Jersey, banned knees on the ground not because he thought they were unsafe, but because he wanted to increase the marketability of MMA and increase the odds of it being sanctioned in other states?

by ilostmydog on Dec 25, 2008 7:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Well its not like it was only for fighters protection. That was one main reason. The reasons you listed were a factor. Never said it wasn’t

by Discman2 on Dec 25, 2008 11:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That they can cause massive damage is an established fact… I am proposing that a weapon be taken away from one side, to enable the other.

That is really your argument?

Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?

by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 25, 2008 10:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If elbows were disallowed [for those in top position], it could be legislated that the full guard is a neutral position and that fight will be stood up if the fighter on top does not attempt to improve his position or the fighter on the bottom does not attempt any offensive maneuvers within a reasonable period of time.

You are creating the position you disagree with, only in reverse. If you see elbows from the top as scoring points and a way to prevent a stand-up, would not someone from the bottom throwing elbows in your legislateively neutral position score points and prevent the stand-up?

Furthermore, you cannot reasonably hold the following two positions concurrently:

And, the efficacy of the elbows is not in question here. That they can cause massive damage is an established fact.

A take down that results in a quick stand up because the top fighter cannot mount any offense would be discredited.

You are preventing something you agree causes “massive damage” and, on top of that, penalizing the person in top position for not mounting any offense!

Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?

by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 25, 2008 10:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The only moves banned are banned for fighter safety

And they’re not changing. The trade off for the current freedoms allowed by athletic boards is an agreement that soccer kicks and strikes to the back of the head will be verboten.

I’d actually like to see the rules on ground striking be MORE liberal, as I hate it when a guy buries his face in your gut and you can’t hit him. As a result, I kind of hate this post’s face. But it was very thorough and well written and I look forward to dissecting your next contribution to the site.

by subo on Dec 25, 2008 6:46 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are many reasons that DREAM bouts are more consistently exciting than UFC bouts. Drewplata, in an overly drawn out and rather non-concise way, has pointed to one of these reasons. Other reasons include, an opening 10 minute round, a smaller fighting area, no 10 point system, knees are allowed to the head of a grounded opponent, the definition of what a grounded opponent is, no draws, and most importantly alternate rules can be agreed upon. There are others, and my favorite is the use of gi’s.

That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.

by mma_dude on Dec 25, 2008 6:51 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you meant to say, ‘There are many reasons why I like DREAM more than the the UFC.’

by ilostmydog on Dec 25, 2008 7:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually a gi is technically illegal in DREAM. When Akiyama wore it, he was breaking the rules, but it went unpunished. I too prefer DREAM fights, as I also preferred Pride fights. I was trying to avoid the knee to the head topic. Instead, I was framing this in terms of leveling the competitive field that I believe has been slanted too much for wrestlers.

by Drewplata on Dec 25, 2008 7:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with that last statement 100%...

If a wrestler can pass the guard, then he should be able to knee the head and thus end the fight. If your point is, that laying in the guard throwing elbows rarely ends a fight and is therefore lame, then I agree with you.

That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.

by mma_dude on Dec 25, 2008 8:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

I can’t disagree with anything you just said. Well put.

Fights should be about establishing a clear victor, and removing knees to the head of a downed opponent creating a monumental, artificial barrier to accomplishing this.

Disallowing elbows would remove any incentive for the fighter on his back to work out of his own guard. What would be the point? If the only strikes the top fighter could throw are punches, then the number of armbars would increase by 50-100% for awhile, then fighters would simply stop going to the ground, and all we’d get are kickboxing matches which can theoretically go to the ground at any time.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Dec 25, 2008 9:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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