The Case for Forrest Griffin
by Luke Thomas on Dec 22, 2008 4:20 PM EST
in MMA News
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A lot of people have looked at Evan’s brutal OMGKTFO over Liddell and are expecting a similar outcome Saturday night. Similarly, a lot of people don’t know their assholes from their armpits. Yes, this is MMA and anything can happen but the differences between Liddell and Forrest are going to make this an entirely different fight. Forrest has much cleaner and orthodox boxing technique than Liddell, evidenced by Forrest’s ability not to drop his hands as if to say, “You won’t punch me right in the jaw. Seriously, try it. Pussy.”
In an interview with MMAweekly.com, Forrest himself says he sees this fight as a “little more like [Evans'] fight with Bisping.” While the similarities between Forrest and Bisping are much closer than Forrest and Liddell, Evans still came out on top in that fight, albeit by split-decision. The size differential between Forrest and Bisping should also provide a greater challenge for Evans, as Forrest walks around at about 220 and Bisping is able to cut to 185.
This fight is literally a toss up, further evidenced by the sportsbook lines, but there’s no arguing that a victory for Forrest would truly cement his name alongside the very best this sport has to offer. A victory would add to his legacy and increase the size of his bank account, but not without a price: the more high quality wins Forrest racks up, the harder it’s going to be for him to try and make us believe he’s not that good.
I'm slightly leaning Evans, although I didn't see Griffin besting Rampage either. For me, though, Griffin's humility is grounded in reality. He doesn't bomb on oppositionl he nitpicks their weakness. He's also fought two men who took him extremely lightly. Shogun was in terrible conditioning and Rampage never checked a single kick (and was able to avoid being submitted despite being ridden in the mount for several minutes). Griffin's wins are still fantastic, but his jaw is still suspect and he does not possess the same athleticism Evans has. His method to victory is Chinese water torture, with a drip by drip approach until the accumulation is too much to stop.
I take issue with the idea that this fight will be much like the Bisping - Evans clash. People will point to Griffin's dubious takedown defense, but a) his ability to stop takedowns improves with every fight and b) he's got a fantastic guard combined with superb conditioning. In other words, you can earn points taking Griffin down, but you're not going to pass his guard or do much damage and you're for sure going to get tired making the double leg your only attack. While I believe Evans will push the takedown and will add penetration step feints to his footwork, I think he's only going to do so to keep Griffin off balance as much as possible. Evans will need to make sure to check leg kicks and to keep pressing Griffin to not allow him to set his feet for kicking or create too much distance.
Even if Evans does this, however, we still circle back to the problem of boxing. Griffin's jab and punch volume are considerable. Even if Evans is able to slow Griffin's pace with unpredictability, working his overhand will have to be delicately timed. Throw in Griffin's much improved defensive maneuvering and matters don't get much better. The trick, as it's always been, is to get Griffin to plant his feet and commit. Once he sits and stops moving, he can be out-angled and surprised by a quicker, more sprightly technician or well gameplanned athlete. Maybe we'll find out if that fighter is Evans this Saturday.
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I think I’ll copy/paste some of that when I make my pick for this fight.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Both got very lucky to get to this point
I dunno which one will win. All I know is I would laugh if the UFC brought Kevin Randleroid back and let him tool on Evans.
I don’t think luck has anything to do with it.
Forrest finished Shogun Rua (despite any “injury” on Shogun’s part, if he won it wouldn’t have been mentioned), he got the nod over Rampage, and in the eyes of many, he beat Tito for two rounds earlier in his career. On top of that, his bouts with Bonnar were two of the most exciting UFC bouts ever.
Rashad drew with Ortiz, won a close fight over undefeated Michael Bisping, and brutally KOed Liddell.
Sounds like these guys earned it.
Both of these guys deserve to be where they are. Rashad would of lost to Tito if it was not for the grabbing of the fence. Rashad did defeat Michael Bisping, because Bisping could not stuff the takedowns. Rashad Evans has proven that he can be a dangerous striker (Jason Lambert, Sean Salmon and Chuck Liddell can preach to that) and an even more dangerous wrestler.
Forrest has defeated Shogun and Rampage, in which both are considered top 5 light heavyweights in the world. He dominanted Shogun and made him submit. he defeated Rampage in what could be the fight of the year by a narrow decision.
This fight, is going to be extremely interesting and fun to watch.
Please...
If Rashad and Tito go 2 more rounds Tito is carried out on a stretcher. Watch the fight again Tito was gassed half way through the 3rd round.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
The problem is that there weren’t two more rounds. Tito likely would have won if he hadn’t grabbed the fence, and stating that two more rounds would have given it to Rashad always baffles me because Tito may very well have played a different gameplan if he had known a 5 round fight was going to happen.
In fact, I think that’s true for most fighters.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 22, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Tito likely would have won if he hadn’t grabbed the fence,
I don’t buy that at all, because Tito won rounds 1 and 2 solely on control against the fence. If he hadn’t grabbed the fence, he could easily have been taken down, which would have given Rashad the fight.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 22, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
What?
Tito clearly won 2 rounds. He grabbed the fence twice and was penalized. It sure as hell wasnt a flagrant Matt Wiman grabbing the trunks kind of foul.
Guaranteed that Chuck Liddell doesn’t get a point deduct for a foul like that.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
So Tito wins round 2 after being on his back for two minutes?
It may be a minor foul, but with so little else happening in the first two rounds, managing to avoid a single takedown would have made a big difference.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 22, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
All 3 judges had Tito winning
You can claim that it was all Tito holding the fence. But not a single judge scored for Rashad. All 3 were 29-28 Tito with a minus -1 for the fence grab. Anything else is complete revisionist history.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Yes, Tito won the fight based on the action in the cage. I simply disagreed with Leland’s assertion that Tito would have won if he hadn’t grabbed the fence. If he hadn’t grabbed the fence, he may have been taken down. That would have changed the complexion of the fight.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 22, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Rashad wins the round if Tito was actually taken down for the mere fact that Evans was completely spent trying to get the takedown, and he hadn’t shown any type of action on the floor during the fight already.
I find it hard to believe that he would suddenly score all over the place on Tito in that round that was clearly a Tito round.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2008 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
So you're basically saying that Tito got a point deduction for no reason?
Judges can only call action they see in the octagon. They based that round on Tito with mat control and a last min guilliotine. Now, would he had nailed that guillotine if he didn’t grab the fence. He probably would have gotten taken down.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Dec 22, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Based on opinion...
Okay, but that’s purely based on opinion. According to the cards and the pace of that round you are questioning, I believe Tito wins hands down.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Do you really think Tito would have trained cardio differently for a 5 round fight? seriously?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I don’t think the issue for Tito is cardio so much as his bad back, which limits how much cardio he can reasonably train. So Tito probably couldn’t train better cardio for five rounds, simply because of his injuries.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 22, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
In a nutshell, we don’t know Tito’s mentality when it comes to training personally. He could very well have milked some of his training due to the 3 rounds only, it could have been due to injuries, who knows.
Fact is… I think if he knew it was 5 rounds, he trains harder, unless his back was limiting him.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
How?
Would he have run more? more plyometrics? maybe long distance swims? It is absurd to think he would train less for a 3 round fight than for a 5 round fight. These guys say it all the time, they train as hard as they can. They train for 10 rounds. The injury argument is legit. If his back was that messed up then I could see him not being able to train as hard or as much. The fact remains though. Tito was gassed 2/3 through the third round and he was lucky he grabbed the fence and wasn’t taken down.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
Sorry but...
beating Bisping at LHW, who is maybe a top 15 MW is not some huge accomplishment nor does is it something that makes one deserving of a title shot.
He got the shot for knocking out Liddell, not for winning a decision over Bisping.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 22, 2008 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks...
I’m aware of that. But I was replying to several posts in which they were saying his body of work (including highlighting beating Bisping) made him title shot worthy.
Right, but his argument wasn’t that he should get his shot just because he beat Bisping. You’re responding to him as though that’s what he argued.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 22, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
I never said it was
And now you’re putting words in my mouth. All I said was beating a non-factor at LHW (regardless of if he was undefeated at the time) and someone who is a barely there factor at MW (regardless of what the hype machine will tell you) is not a huge accomplishment nor should it form part of defending someone’s resume who’s getting a title shot.
So he beat a guy that’s not in the same weight class and isn’t really a factor in his new weight class after moving down, drew but only because of a penalty against a guy who hasn’t been relevant in years and beat Liddell. Big feather in his cap beating Liddell, so he got 1 big win and is in the title picture – but other than that his resume isn’t really impressing me.
I’m sure your disapproval is at the forefront of Evan’s mind.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 22, 2008 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah because I was under that impression…thanks for clearing that up champ.
This is a blog where people express their opinions, last I checked you do a fair bit of that yourself. Maybe I should just reply to all of your posts with a smarmy, "I’m sure your [ insert thought ] is at the forefront of [ insert name ]’s mind. Then I can be as douche-y cool as you!!! Clearly your opinion is more worthy than everyone else’s!
Um it certainly would be mentioned
Because he’d have had surgery anyways and been out for oh almost a year and a half.
I still think range and reach are going to be a tough combination for Rashad Evans to get through. Griffin is likely going to push this fight from the outside with kicks and ranged attacks. This will allow him to see the shot coming fairly easily, sprawl, and brawl back at Evans.
If Evans manages to move inside, that’ll be his best shot IMO. Griffin has shown a toughness as well, so I think he can outlast Evans on the floor, but in the standup department, I think Griffin can really get by on points.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
I think Rashad will be willing to get inside and trade on occassion (at his leisure by using his great speed). He’ll get the better of those exchanges, Forrest doesn’t hit hard or punch all that quickly.
I disagree
I disagree… even if Forrest doesn’t hit hard, as you put it, he’s still going to pepper Rashad as he moves in. Forrest still has the reach and range, he’ll have some great cardio, and he’s tough as nails. Rashad getting inside is going to be a tough task, as it is for any fighter. More times than not, Forrest should win that type of fight.
Rashad’s wrestling is a huge factor. If he can put Forrest down, I think he can win, but that’s the only way I really see him winning.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2008 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
FORREST
forrest not being able to “bust a grape” and having little ko power is more of a blessing for him than a detriment imo. it forces him to concentrate on all aspects of the fightgame. he has to be in the best condition, he has to have the biggest heart, he has to work on and have excellent leg strikes. look how 1 deminsional chuck and rampage have become, only looking for the 1 punch ko. if forrest had great ko power, he would probably fall into that catagory too. bottom line is that forrest isnt great at any 1 thing, but is good at alot of things. i dont know that i agree that he has a suspect chin either. he’s been tkoed once and that was from an accumulation of punches, not just 1 punch.
Yeah, I don’t think his chin is suspect, either. If anything, we’ve seen him eat power shots from Bonnar, Rampage, and Tito yet keep going. The Jardine TKO was an accumulation of punches where he wasn’t actually KOed and the Horn KO was early in his career and the result of a flush head kick that would’ve KOed anyone. On top of that, when he has eaten a punch, only the very strongest, flush shots have wobbled him. Usually he keeps pushing forward after shaking it off.
Meh
I dunno if I would put “Power Shots” and “Tito Ortiz” in the same sentence.
dropkick101
it seems like anytime a fighters gets koed or tkoed, once,he gets the suspect chin or glass jaw label. ive seen fans saying the same thing about gsp. serra didn’t even hit him on the chin and that was an accumulation of punches as well. arlovski has the same label, but he is a hw. any hw can be koed with those small gloves and that much power. randy and wandi have both been koed or tkoed several times, but they dont get the weak chin label.
I disagree. I think his chin is still suspect, but definitely not a glass jaw by any means. He can take some shots, but I think he is susceptible to being knocked out cold with a glancing shot. A lot of people see that statement as “Well… everyone can be knocked out” but it’s the impact that we’re looking at. Some guys get hung to dry by glancing blows and tend to have suspect chins. Rashad’s punch on Chuck was going to stop anyone.
In the end, I think Griffin has a run-of-the-mill chin. He’s above average but not made of granite. He is susceptible, but how much he can take is always in question.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 22, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t, but he’s been KO’d twice: by Jeremy Horn’s headkick and Jardine’s GNP.
“Suspect chin” is the most misunderstood term in MMA. It doesn’t mean that once and everytime someone plants it on the chin clean you go down. That’s a convincted chin. Jorge Santiago and Goulet have that. Rather, it means it’s always an X-factor. Some shots they’ll absorb, but there’s always the lingering possibility – whose probability is higher than that of the average fighter – that a hard enough shot will send the fighter down.
Griffin’s chin isn’t terrible, but it’s hardly sturdy either. There’s a stronger question about what shots he’ll be able to take on balance more than others.
Leland is correct.
ok. so your saying that forrest doesn’t have an iron chin like big nog, bj or cote. i agree with that.
I’m saying a little more than that. You can’t speak in these obvious generalities if you’re going to make the lines between them hard and fast. There’s a massive gap between iron chin and convicted chin. He has a somewhat below average chin. “Suspect” itself is a bit unclear and he’s at the higher end of those with that some set of characteristics.
But being KOed
by a head kick once & one time via GNP should not relegate a fighter to below average chin either. I understand there is really no way to generalize this other than glass or iron, so that is the only way we can place it.
That’s fine, but I’m not basing it on that. I’m basing it on his body of work. He’s faced very few heavy handed punchers and when he has they’ve almost universally rocked him. If you’ve got 5 wins because you’ve fought Jeff Monson, Chael Sonnen, Dan Severn, Bill Mahood and Elvis Sinosic, you’re not really going to learn much about a guy’s chin (and Forrest has). When you’ve fought and been rocked by Bonnar, Rampage, Jardine, and Horn (not a big puncher per se, but that was a hard shot), questions are going to be raised. That’s plenty fair.
by Luke Thomas on Dec 22, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is somewhat fair,
but to more accurate it should be left at his chin has not been tested that much then. That Rampage uppercut should have KOed most guys & it did not him. Almost any fighter hit with that uppercut other than Hendo would have been sleeping.
Should have KO'd most guys on the street
When you talks chins in the fight world you anticipate that a guy should take a shot that some bum on the street would wilt under. And that was not the heaviest shot Page ever landed on somebody and Forrest was damn close to going to sleep.
Not really,
what I said was that not many fighters can take a blast-uppercut from someone like Rampage & not be rocked or dropped. He was not finished. Someone with a “suspect or below average chin” should have been asleep after those, period.
To each his own
despite the fact that the uppercut is the least likely of the KTFO punches due to the fact it is thrown from and angle where you can’t generate as much force as a straight punch or a hook. And the way it generally lands is not in line with putting people to sleep unless your name is Tyson.
I simply do not believe that to be true IMO.
Uppercuts throughout history have been extremely violent on whomever they land on & even if there are follow up punches, the uppercut is what did the major damage.
I also read from Michael Rome
that Rampage’s uppercut was the best in MMA & Forrest took that & was still awake.
Yes,
& these are tiny gloves so those shots would drop most anyone. How many fighters can take a straight uppercut from a powerful guy & not even be rocked or for that matter dropped. If his chin was truly suspect he would not have recovered from those.
An uppercut
Is actually the punch least likely to KO somebody as it generally lands UNDER their chin. An uppercut does its damage if a fighter puts his head down and looks down into it and THEN it lands on the chin.
If I walked up to you on the street and uppercut you
It would be the LEAST likely shot to KO you. Because it would land UNDER YOUR CHIN. Which is where Page landed his shot on Forrest. That is the point. It might drop you to a knee from the shock of getting your head kicked back but it wouldn’t knock you out. If I walked up and unloaded a right straight directly on your unsuspecting chin you would be MUCH more likely to get KO’d
If you looked down into it
then your chin is getting hit on the tip, which is known as getting hit on the button. If you aren’t looking down you’re not “hitting the button” Boxing is my forte bud
I am no expert
& will give that to you, but most uppercuts that land flush (opponent looking down or not) seem to do tons of damage & the end of the fight is typically near is what I was saying. If Forrest’s chin was truly suspect he should not have been around after those.
No problem,
it is good to discuss these things with someone who has boxing knowledge. I appreciate it.
But to the original point
His chin isn’t glass but IMO the way he took more damage from a couple more glancing than flush punches than a decent chin should have.
His chin is slightly below avg. But still better than mine
ouch should have proofread
His chin isn’t glass but IMO he took more damage from a couple more glancing than flush punches than a person with a decent/average chin should have
I guess,
but those “glancing punches” seemed to be very well placed. We always talk about getting hit in certain areas always means trouble for any fighter.
I'll go through them
Tip of the chin – KTFO. Clean, hard shots on the tip of the chin SHUT PEOPLE DOWN. Thats the button. Thats when you see peoples legs lock up and fall over straight on their back or on their face.
Behind the ear – generally will not knock somebody unconscious but regularly will knock their balance all out of wack
Good to know,
but with the size of these fighters hands I would think that a flush uppercut under the chin, looking down or not, would have to catch that button pretty good. I just believe it to be very early in Forrest’s career to categorize him as having a suspect or below average chin. Not that big of a body of work.
I just can't equate
getting KOed by a head kick & once again via GNP as a suspect or below average chin. To me, there has to be more history to categorize a fighter this way. Your getting caught post a little further down is what I mean.
Fair enough
Good post. His loss to Jardine was very early and was the first real punch of the fight he got hit with.
Sure. There are a lot of guys who have average chins. Not very many have below average and still hold belts.
do you consider the fighters i mentioned as having"suspect chins". i think the term is just an opinion, not a fact.
randy,wandi and rampage have multiple ko’s and tko losses in their careers. thats the fighters who i was referring to. do they have below or above average chins in your opinion.
Wandy’s chin is not as sturdy as it once was, but still quite capable. Rampage has been TKO’d and KO’d but the effort it took to drop him would’ve stopped any mammal on earth and Couture’s chin is also pretty decent, but his age really makes it unclear just how good it is. I think it’s probably pretty good.
i agree. i dont think they have weak chins either. wandi got koed early in his career by belfort early in the fight. i compare that ko to forrest’s ko loss to horn. early in their careers and not a true barometer of their ability to take a punch. of course conditioning has alot to do with one’s ability to recover from a big shot. i guess in the endi just dont belive that there is an in-between. either you have a weak chin or you dont.
Wand's KO's
Crocop HK… Then next fight against Hendo – Spinning backfist to combination. He took Chucks best in the next fight without ever going out so no.
Randy’s chin is definately not Iron and Page has an Iron chin as his KO’s came at Wand’s hands after 17 knees the first time.
Mmmm damn
You got me. It was out of sight out of mind. I would say Wand got caught cold more than anything in that fight but thats just excuses. Vitor back then was an animal too.
getting caught cold is real – See Lennox Lewis vs Hasim Rahman. Lewis had an iron chin but got caught cold and KO’d
LENNOX
lennox also got caught by oliver mcall as well. i dont think lennox had a suspect chin either, but he was labled as such. his chin was always listed as suspect, which to me always meant weak.
But he also took
Vitali’s best and whether he was losing or winning he never went down when taking absolute bombs.
LOL
Wow I meant the McCall fight in the first place.
Rahman didn’t catch him cold that was McCall. Rahman caught him and KO’d him but thats when he was fat and didn’t take the fight seriously and got lazy. Got what he deserved there.
tommy hearns, bruce seldon, tommy morrison(im sure im forgetting someone else) had suspect chins imo. getting back to the original arguement, i dont think forrest fits into this category. he got caught with a good punch from jardine and then took several unanswered shots before the fight was stopped, without ever going unconcious. i dont think that forrest has a suspect chin. like i posted above, i dont think there is an in-between, either you have a weak chin or you dont, not different levels of afighters ability to take a punch.
He would have recovered but he got blasted against the fence.
Not one punch but several. If you believe that, I’d hate to see what you think of GSP.
Hah. ‘Convincted’. When you fuck up, it gives me hope.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 22, 2008 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Rashad’s wrestling is going the key here. If he can take down Forrest at an effective pace, I say Rashad wins this fight. I think Rashad has many more ways to win, but his cardio is going to be in question. Pus have we ever seen Rashad’s submission defense? Forrest could pull off a submission, but I think Rashad’s wrestling will determine if he wins this fight or not.
Going to be close, but I think Rashad’s movements, odd duck and punch and wrestling will defeat Forrest.
I’m going with Forrest on this one. If Forrest can make it past round 2 (and I think he will) I see Rashad starting to gas out – something we know will not happen to Forrest. I like both fighters though.
I am going with Forrest simply because he does not call himself "Sugah"
Forrest may not have true KO power, but he shows good skills in many other areas & unless he is KO’ed himself, he is not going to quit.
BUT.. does Forrest tweak his nipples before his fight? I think not. and that is why I am picking Rashad to defeat Forrest.
You gotta love the Hairy chest vs. the nipple tweaker. Going to be INSANE!
:)
Rest assured...
Both these fighters will have a well thought out game plan. This is going to be a technical fight. I don’t know who will win but I have a feeling it will go to a decision.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
You only need to win three rounds of a five round fight to take the decision.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 22, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Evans has made it this far without either happening yet- I don’t see Forrest being the one to change that any time soon.
by George Lucas on Dec 22, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously not
If that was so Rampage should be champ. Cause he won 4 against Griffen.
To win a decision you need judges to score the fight in your favor.
lol
Ramage won 2 (possibly) 3 of the 5 rounds, but the 10-8 round killed him.
You can call it either way, but still why are talking about that fight? Forrest won.
Because they gave it to him...
Rampage really won!
by xFenixKnightx on Dec 22, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
That’s sort of how decisions work. The win is awarded to the fighter the judges believe won.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 22, 2008 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose they could go with awarding the victory to whoever random, anonymous guy on the internet thinks won instead, but I don’t see how that would be an improvement.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 22, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
"but I don’t see how that would be an improvement."
Justice would be served.
It’s just my opinion :) I’ve seen that match over and over again. Still dont see how Forrest won.
That, and I know whenever the subject comes up about that match people get all defensive and I get a kick out of it. lol Its all good, maybe it was for the best. Rampage would still be stuck with Juanito…
Now we get to see if Forrest can do what no other man has done. Give Evans his 1st loss. Beware of the nipple twist, it’s deadly!
by xFenixKnightx on Dec 22, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think Rashad’s conditioning is just a huge factor. We saw Shogun badly gas trying to take Forrest down and then working his ass off to pass guard with no luck. Rashad gassed badly against Bisping and it wasn’t the first time, and that was just dealing with a guy that has an ability to get up.
Rashad also almost got submitted by Ortiz.
I think Forrest’s size is going to be a big factor here. He’s much bigger, should be able to defend takedowns, and is in much better shape.
He’s also shown a tremendous ability in his last two fights to handle bottom position against two guys that were once well known for inflicting damage from the top. I think Forrest is a big submission threat from guard against Evans, I don’t think Evans will pass his guard.
by Michael Rome on Dec 22, 2008 7:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hard to argue with a lot of this. I’d only add that there is as close to zero percent chance of Evans passing Griffin’s guard.
Even if Evans is able to pass into side control, Forrest is good from his back all over the place. His jiu-jitsu is vastly underrated.
Unless Rashad is able to score a Liddell-esque KO, I don’t see him winning on points against Forrest. Rashad is a great wrestler with much improved technical boxing skills, but when it comes to an overall MMA game, Forrest has the advantage.
I think Rashad dictates where this fight goes, and I believe he’ll keep it standing where he can do the most damage to Forrest. The smaller man has a disadvantage in GnP and Evans’ camp is well aware that this will waste his energy and slow him down.
It will be takedowns for points, boxing for damage. Forrest’s solid guard will not play very much into this fight because there is no reason to stay there. Rashad will win the first two rounds without taking much damage and open it up on the feet in the later rounds.
I agree
I don’t think Rashad will pass guard on Griffin. I also don’t think Evans is going to have more cardio than Griffin, and I think Griffin’s training at Xtreme Couture will vastly prepare him for a wrestling battle with Rashad. I think all of those factors really neutralize a chance at making this a big ground game fight.
If Rashad truly believes his standup has improved, his confidence is probably through the roof right now after knocking out Liddell. If he keeps this in standup mode, I find it hard to believe that he will move inside and stick Forrest hard.
The problem in the Liddell fight is that he moved in and left himself wide open for the counter. I don’t see Griffin making that mistake. I think he will try to pick apart Rashad from the outside for points rather than finishing him. It’ll be up to Rashad to get inside, and I think Griffin will try ot neutralize the shot with leg kicks as well. That’s his gameplan in my eyes. Anything on the floor will be purely defensive for Griffin, and standing will be a range war rather than Griffin trying to end it.
If it comes down to cardio late, I think Griffin may try to finish.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I love Fightlinker.
I came in a little late to this debate. I’ll just leave it at that.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 22, 2008 8:44 PM EST reply actions
Is Forrest disciplined enough standing to track down Evans? Will he be able to land anything? It was like Liddell was swinging at a ghost and Forrest doesn’t have the fastest hands either (though he has more reach).
If Forrest can’t damage Rashad, Rashad will dance around in circles for the entire fight picking his spots. And I think he will eventually rock Forrest from the inside if they do exchange. Rashad was in the best shape of his life vs. Liddell, I expect the same or better for this title fight which means Forrest will be in the line of fire.
I won’t go so far to say it is the best boxing I’ve ever seen, but it is better than many established fighters’ and should be very effective unless Forrest can get him off balance which should prove to be difficult. He has great head movement, footwork, switches up his stances/rhythm often (like Mayweather), and his left hand is extremely distracting. I have a feeling we’ve only seen a fraction of Rashad’s boxing, he really didn’t open up until round 2, and Chuck was wise to back off when Rashad threw some hard combos with his back to the cage.
Rashad is still finding his range on his feet, but I think his handspeed, power, and elusiveness should carry him to the victory. Rashad was a very smart fighter even before he hooked up with the mad genius. Forrest has alot going for him, but Rashad has too much momentum (catch-all) in my eyes.
i see this fight going the whole five rounds with evans winnig on points by ground and pound.the question is will evans gassed as he did in the past. looking at rampages interview’s as of late has sent a chill down my spine,he looks lost and that is not a good thing fighting the ax murderer. frank mir has a 50/50 chance to beat big nog. but with nog’s better standup he might cruise to a decision while mir has to k.o him asap.
When you talk about “chin”, shouldn`t it sort of count what you do after you get knocked down? Seems to me that Forrest has a decent ability to keep on fighting while dazed?
"They called him the axe-murderer because he was murdering chumps. They should have been calling him the chump-murderer..." Rampage Jackson (commentating on the fighting abilities of Wanderlei "F#ck Chuck" Silva.)
by BlueberryMuffin on Dec 23, 2008 4:43 AM EST reply actions
Why are we talking about "is Forrest disciplined enough to track down Evans?"
Forrest is the champ & Evans is going to have to come to him if he wants to take the belt. I am sure that his camp has talked to him about not going to decision. This is a fight that unless he completely dominates he has to finish Forrest to win.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to be funny, but everything you just said is the exact opposite of what Forrest did to win the belt.
by bigweeze on Dec 23, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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