"Poor Officiating" and Inexperienced Competitors
Steve Cofield makes the case that these two variables cast a shadow on the UFC's "Fight for the Troops" event:
I've been covering MMA heavily since 2002 and there's only been one broken limb. Tim Sylvia's arm was snapped by Frank Mir at UFC 48. Most fighters know when to tap in a dangerous situation or the official must protect the fighter from his own ego getting in the way of safety. You had a lethal mix on live television last night with an inexperienced fighter and a tentative official.
I hate to dump on a guy who just had his arm broken but why was Razak Al Hassan given a fight in the UFC? By the looks of it, he might not make the cut in a 32-man field to get on the The Ultimate Fighter. He shouldn't be in there with someone like Steve Cantwell and he definitely shouldn't have been fighting on the televised portion of the card. If Al Hassan is not smart or experienced enough to tap then referee Mario Yamasaki had to err on the side of caution. He's way too experienced to allow that to happen to a fighter.
Cofield also noted the number of unanswered knees that Brandon Wolff took in his loss to Ben Saunders before the referee stepped in and stopped the fight. Frankly, referees are tasked with an extremely difficult job. They're forced to make vital judgments about a fighter's well-being with little time and incomplete information. Often times, they're lambasted for ending a fight prematurely. And when a competitor is injured, they're accused of allowing the fight to go on too long. It's hard for me to condemn a referee unless his, or her, actions were clearly inappropriate.
Another important aspect of the overall equation is matchmaking. Every effort should be made to pit fighters of similar experience and skill levels against one another. Admittedly, this is far from an exact science. However, it seems evident to me that Al-Hassan was too green to be placed in a main card match against the former WEC light heavyweight champion in Cantwell. It's quite possible that the UFC overestimated Al-Hassan's abilities, or maybe, placement in the high profile event negatively affected his performance. Whatever the case, the onus is on the UFC to closely evaluate the suitability of potential competitors so as to avoid unnecessary injuries and blowout matches. One can't expect a young, up-and-coming fighter to turn down a shot at the UFC, because he doesn't feel ready for the challenge.
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Whatever the case, the onus is on the UFC to closely evaluate the suitability of potential competitors so as to avoid unnecessary injuries and blowout matches. One can’t expect a young, up-and-coming fighter to turn down a shot at the UFC, because he doesn’t feel ready for the challenge.
How, though? Its become clear that fighter quality is very difficult to accurately judge short of systematic trial against increasingly difficult competition. The onus on that falls more on the lack of quality b-leagues that test out fighters. The only other way is to rely on the word of camps and fighters, but that puts fighters that don’t fight in any major camps at a serious disadvantage.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 3:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think the “showcasing” of Steve Cantwell is why the matchmaking was what it was. Obviously the UFC is looking to promote this young guy in the future. They aren’t about to put him in there against someone to spoil that. Especially in a charity event.
The matchmaking on the whole card in General reeked to “Gimmie Showcase” for the more popular fighters.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Dec 11, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But again, they do that sort of thing A LOT. Its pretty much expected, unless you’re somebody the UFC wants to protect for a specific market (Huerta), you’re gonna have to sink or swim. Al-Hassan could have easily done a Houston Alexander or a Junior Dos Santos. He just didn’t.
If Al Hassan had simply tapped out and saved his arm, nobody would be talking about this. And the UFC can’t predict when somebody won’t tap, and act accordingly.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Bottom line is he should have tapped.
My point is more to the tone of Cofield’s article. He is blaming the Ref’s and “inexperience”.
My point is that uneven, and showcase style matchmaking had just as much to do with what turned into an injury riddled card.
It also goes back to what the UFC’s goal ultimately is. Are they going to be the “super bowl of MMA” that we always hear? Or are they going to be the WWE and do what they can to back the people they feel are the most marketable?
Chuck Liddell sure as hell isnt getting pitted against Lyoto Machida. Does it make it fair that the Evenson guy got Fed to Gabe Gonzaga at UFC 91?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Dec 11, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah man that’s how you make a name for yourself. While Evenson was “fed” in a way, he was also given a huge opportunity. He failed in epic fashion.
by dropkick101 on Dec 11, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B.S. – It was a showcase fight and nothing else.
If it was anyone else it would have been, “Ohhh look, those crazy bastards are feeding their top level guys an easy can (e.g. showcase) fight.” But here it was “they were letting this overmatched and underexperienced guy a huge opportunity to make a name for himself!”?? PLEASE.
by The_Gaijin on Dec 11, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“My point is that uneven, and showcase style matchmaking had just as much to do with what turned into an injury riddled card.”
I dunno. The biggest injuries were to Yoshida, Al Hassan, Wolff, and Hill. Hill’s injury was a flat-out fluke, and there was only about a ten-spot differential between Yoshida and Koscheck in the rankings. Wolff was considered a good enough talent that Koppenhaver ducked him, and Al Hassan refused to tap. Grade-A asskickings happen on every card regardless of the rankings of the fighters going up against each other. It was just somewhat flukish that this particular card resulted in so many injuries.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Evenson was fed to Kongo. Hendricks was fed to Gonzaga. :)
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s it right there. Fluke. There are cards where the mjajority of guys walk away without a scratch. The stars aligned and this shit happened.
by dropkick101 on Dec 11, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there were multiple last minute substitutions — including Cantwell’s opponent and Dan Miller who punk’d Matt Wiman.
Cantwell vs Stann 3 wouldn’t have been as big a mismatch.
Now Swick vs Goulet was a get over match.
But there was no reason to expect Koscheck or Saunders to be so dominant.
by Kid Nate on Dec 11, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was Jim Miller.
Bolts from the Blue // People who have time on their hands will inevitably waste the time of people who have work to do.
by Richard Wade on Dec 11, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s like the 50th time i’ve done that.
by Kid Nate on Dec 11, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Be prepared to keep counting. Bloody Millers. One of them should have to change his name.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We could call the smaller brother Jim “Miller Lite”.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 11, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s also keep in mind that Swick turned down that fight until Goulet taunted him. Goulet obviously thought he had a chance; that he was proved wrong in decisive fashion isn’t necessarily indicative of anything other than he should learn when to keep his trap shut.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One for two
That one ref sucked (I’ll always love Mario ‘Finish Him’ Yamamoto), but I am not about to declare Razek a bum after getting beat by Cantwell. I think it’s just possible that, at 22, Cantwell is just that damn good.
by subo on Dec 11, 2008 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yamasaki. Although he should change his name. It’s cooler your way.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Motherfucker. I made him and Kid Yamamoto have a baby without even telling him.
by subo on Dec 11, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s just possible that, at 22, Cantwell is just that damn good.
Real good point. For some reason a lot of people have decided that, in spite of being WEC champ at 21, he’s never going to be more than a UFC gatekeeper. I suspect Cantwell would have fucked up A LOT of UFC fighters last night.
Not to mention, you can still be a good fighter and be a total dumbass when it comes to not tapping. Din Thomas almost took Jeremy Stephens’ arm home with him in their fight, and he’s 3-2 in the UFC now.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably because of how much he struggled with Brian Stann, who is a terrible fighter.
by George Lucas on Dec 11, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For one, struggled? He beat him down pretty thoroughly in their last fight, and in their first fight he was just caught by a hard shot, which everybody agrees Stann can do.
For another, Stann is a terrible fighter? He’s not a great fighter, but he has wins over some ok talent, and would probably at least be able to stick around for a little while in the UFC.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, struggled. Yes, terrible.
Stann is a brawler in the worst sense: shitty footwork, shitty head movement, shitty cardio, lots of “heart”.
Despite all of that, Cantwell (who’s supposedly an expert striker) took forever to find his range, let Stann off the hook two or three times and ended up eating all sorts of slow, badly gassed, badly telegraphed punches that anyone with a modicum of talent would have seen a mile away.
by George Lucas on Dec 11, 2008 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The way I look at the whole Stann thing, Cantwell lost his first (and only) fight in a lackluster performance, went back to the gym, came back and fucking owned Stann. He’s a fast learner, add that to his age and I think he could be a contenda.
by subo on Dec 11, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a case to be made about the Al-Hassan vs. Cantwell fight, but that’s about it. Not much can be done to prevent what happened to Hill, Wolff was outmatched but a competent fighter and Yoshida is plenty talented to be in the spot he was. There was, however, exceptionally poor officiating, but even then the UFC is at the mercy of athletic commissions. Yamasaki is a native to DC so he’s able to make the trek, but the local NC refs – like the ones in Chicago – leave much to be desired.
by Luke Thomas on Dec 11, 2008 3:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
. Yamasaki is a native to DC so he’s able to make the trek
And he let Matt Wiman hang on to Miller’s pants for as long as it took to have Miller gas out on the guillotine, so Yamasaki wasn’t exactly on top of his game, either.
by Brett Jones on Dec 11, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was borderline DQ shorts grabbing and he didn’t even take a point. Holding the shorts was the only thing keeping him alive and he flat out ignored the ref. Yamasaki sent a message, “Anything goes, I will not do anything to you.”
by szucconi on Dec 11, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t defend that. I’ll ask him about it when i see him this weekend.
by Luke Thomas on Dec 11, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My initial reaction to Hill’s injury, was to think about how inexperienced he is and that he shouldn’t be fighting in the UFC, kind of like a High School kid being put into the NFL. But after thinking it over, it could have happened at any level and I don’t think it was a case of him being hurt because he was in the UFC.
Now I still think he is to inexperienced to be there, but that has nothing at all to do with his leg injury.
Wolff just got overwhelmed and was taken out of the fight by Ben Saunders (really? that sounds so wierd!). The stoppage was about right imo, because he didn’t go down, was trying to defend, but just got buried by all those knees.
Al-Hassan was stupid not to tap. I hate to be so blunt, but that is the bottom line. How long is he out now? I would guess a damn long time. This was nobody’s fault but his own. This is a guy whose name has been around the boards of various sites for a while, so you would expect him to have enough experience/intelligence to know when to tap. While I didn’t care for Cantwell’s reaction, it isn’t the worst thing I have seen.
WTF is with Mario letting Wiman hold the shorts for so long? ridiculous. And why would you break 2 guys apart when one is on the other’s back??
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 11, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To those who follow the sport, arm-breaking is part of the game – that’s the entire purpose of the armbar. These are martial arts – linguistically derived from Mars, the Roman god of war. If a fighter doesn’t tap, his fault – crank the limb until he does. I have a bigger problem with the Saunders fight – Wolff was obviously done long before the official end, he was defending on pure instinct, nothing intelligent about it. Fights like that & Kim Couture’s latest, where one fighter obviously doesn’t want to fight anymore, I would stop them sooner than most refs. But that’s me.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 11, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I don’t disagree with you (I’ve only seen clips of the fight and you don’t get a sense of it), I think that people are nervous to push the line too far. For example: GSP-Fitch. By the 4th round, did ANYONE think Fitch had a chance to do anything except prove he can take a beating? Maybe the Fitch nut-huggers, but not many others. But I don’t think many would suggest the fight should be stopped, even seeing Fitch’s face afterwards. Then there’s guys like Nog, who take a ridiculous beating that would probably leave most of us in the hospital for a week peeing blood into a tube, and he STILL wins. So there’s a lot of grey areas in that sense.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point, but Fitch and Nog were still in the fight. I’m talking where the other guy is trying to run away, but since he’s covering his head, he’s “intelligently defending himself”. The only image you need of Saunders’s fight is a bloody Wolff in Saunders’s clinch kissing knees.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Dec 11, 2008 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll have to find the fight and get back to you. LIke I said, the clips don’t really do a fight justics.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I mostly agree with you, this is the thing about mma. A guy can be getting beat down and still pull off a sub or ko punch, albeit a long shot to some extent.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 11, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that the athletic commission also has the right to prohibit a fight if they think its unequally matched and that such different levels of experience may jeopardize the health of a particular fighter (Tim Silvia vs Ken Shamrock pops to mind as a case where i think they should step in).
Anyway, although i do agree to a certain extent with whats said, i have to side with the UFC. They have constantly given us competitive matches in almost all cards, top to bottom. I think its unfair to place blame on them for one arrogant fighter that simply didnt know when to tap. And i wouldnt attribute that to inexperience either. There are other examples of fighters that have let this happen (a certain Gracie i recall), or pass out rather than tap… something i’ve always seen as pointless.
That said, when it comes to inexperience i was more shocked with Corey Hill braking his leg when being checked. It must have been one hell of a freakish accident. And as for knees to the face, what about when Ken Shamrock fought Tito for the first time. I doubt anyone would attribute the amount of knees he ate (i lost count) to inexperience.
by iamtheoriginalchris on Dec 11, 2008 3:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Bruno vs. Rees ref was fucking terrible.
And say what you want about Rogan, he’s not afraid to call out these jackass refs who are easily intimidated by the crowd. When a ref’s in over his head, Rogan is the first one to say it and I appreciate that.
“I don’t know what this ref wants them to do. They are doing something. They’re fighting.”
by The Ghost of Spike Owen on Dec 11, 2008 3:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It was the same ref who didnt even see Corey Hill’s leg bent in two. It took Rogan screaming at the top of his lungs to get the ref to notice.
by Benicio on Dec 11, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Wolff/Saunders match wasn’t bad reffing….Wolff was blocking a large portion of them with him arms…then he decided to use his face.
http://mma4real.net/
by Tha Realness on Dec 11, 2008 3:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he’s training at Wolfslair…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly the only poor officiating was that guy who kept calling for action in what I think was the Miller-Rees fight when they were in the clinch. I think it was that fight. The guys were working and jocking for position and he kept telling them to do something. The guy was clearly an idiot and knew nothing about MMA.
As it goes with the Cantwell armbar, a ref is not going to stop it right away if you are not tapping. Anybody with common sense is going to tap out if their arm is about to be broken. Al-Hussan didn’t. There are many cases where a guy looks like he locks an armbar but doesn’t have it tight enough or something and the other guy escapes. Similarly, should the ref have stopped the Miller-Wiman fight when that guillotine was locked in so tight? No, of course not. In the case of an armbar, by the time a ref jumps in to stop it if you don’t tap, chances are it’s broken.
by dropkick101 on Dec 11, 2008 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That guy was an absoulte retard. Breaking fighters when one guy has the other’s back? WTF?
by The_Gaijin on Dec 11, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed Rogan was highly critical of one of the ref’s (can’t recall his name) for breaking up the combatants too quickly. As for Saunders vs. Wolff, I thought there could have been slightly earlier stoppage. Wolff just wasn’t doing anything to improve position. He was eating some wicked shots. I don’t think anyone saw him making a comeback. Poor Hill; I saw a break like that in a Muay Thai match on Inside Edition (or some show like that) years ago. I hope he can recover.
by dmayeda on Dec 11, 2008 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Cofield article is updated...
and fwiw, Al-Hussan had a dislocated elbow, not a broken arm.
Either way, it’s really hard for a ref to tell what kind of pressure is being put on a joint – I’ve seen fights where I was sure a shoulder or arm would give, but the fighter was able to get free. I think the only legitimate way to judge a ref is whether they notice any damage and stop the fight immediately if they do.
by twotone on Dec 11, 2008 3:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, referees are tasked with an extremely difficult job. They’re forced to make vital judgments about a fighter’s well-being with little time and incomplete information. Often times, they’re lambasted for ending a fight prematurely. And when a competitor is injured, they’re accused of allowing the fight to go on too long. It’s hard for me to condemn a referee unless his, or her, actions were clearly inappropriate.
Agreed. I don’t think I saw anything last night that that made me think the officiating was particularly bad. The refs are in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” sort of position. Besides, it’s not like the UFC has control over the refs. If the refs suck, then its up to the commissions to make sure they’re trained properly.
by pud333 on Dec 11, 2008 4:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Heh. First paragraph was supposed to be in quotes.
by pud333 on Dec 11, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it strange that I really want to get into refereeing? I think most of the refs do a good job, but when I see a shitty one, I’m absolutely convinced I could do a better job. Only thing is, I just can’t figure out how to start…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Easy enough...
get ahold of our state athletic commission (assuming you live in a state where it is sanctioned) and ask what the avenue is to get into reffing in your state. The most important thing is getting licensed in your state and then you can go from there. I did the same thing with boxing a ways back.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 11, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Live in Canada, specifically in BC. All the fights happen in small communities, and their refs are usually guys who ref amatuer wrestling or tae kwon do. It’s kind of a “the usual suspects” scenario, and very hard to break into.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Talk to one of them...
if you want to know how to do what someone does…ask them. I mean…maybe they want to keep it a closed little community…but maybe one of them will help out.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 11, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm working on it...
My BJJ coach is trying to help me find an in. We’ll see what happens. It definitely isn’t a welcoming environment, though.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there is not a whole lot of work to be had in MMA. I would look into maybe starting with wrestling or TKD or boxing even. With a goal of reffing MMA and I think you are not just going to get an in and start there.
by szucconi on Dec 11, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt see anything bad, freak accidents happen in every sports. And besides his arm broke, ok but it wasnt like he was in the hold all day it was a very short span of time, after he got caught in it he rolled over and appeared for a moment to be getting out of the hold then he stoppped and his arm popped but it seems like it was forever because the UFC and Spike showed the replay over and over in super slow motion which makes it seem like the ref had alot of time to make a decision and stop it and in reality he didnt.
by jks9202 on Dec 11, 2008 4:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
And if he’d stopped it early, without al-Hassan tapping, imagine the hand-wringing and hyperbole about how he was okay and could have worked his way free (a la Paulo Filho and Sonnen before Paulo went off the deep end). It’s a VERY tough position for a ref. Compare to if a guy has a RNC in and his opponent won’t tap; if the ref doesn’t step in, someone goes to sleep, gets woken up by some smelling salts, and his coach punches him in the nuts for not tapping. With an armbar or kimura or heel hook, it’s a fine line between trying to work through it and pushing it too far, and a line that once crossed involves a horrific injury and trip to the hospital. Being the ref in that position is TOUGH.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally. When Al-Hassan’s arm broke I was wondering if he was going to find a way out of it. He didn’t look done until the actual snap.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ofc one has to assume that a fighter not tapping knows what he’s doing. Otherwise we’d be in some pretty suspect situations with refs stopping fights as soon as an armbar locks up. Granted, this is an alternative. But not a tasty one, since we see successful bar defences all the time.
Will this event convince the NY AC, though? Conspiracy, I tell you.
by ununkvadrium on Dec 11, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I coulda swore they said Al-Hassan was accomplished on the ground… for some reason I thought they said he was a black belt? maybe they were talking about taekwondo
by dbcb on Dec 11, 2008 4:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes, TKD black belt, but they also said he was a BJJ guy, though I doubt he is a high belt.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 11, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Cantwell’s pretty good on the ground, but people like to ignore that. :)
by Michaelthebox on Dec 11, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UFC.com is usually pretty accurate with listing belt rankings for any styles, and they only have him as TKD brown belt (although I do believe Rogan said he was a black). No rank listed for BJJ, unsurprisingly.
by ilostmydog on Dec 11, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, they said he was black
And that he was wearing a belt when he got to the arena.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Dec 11, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This article doesn’t touch on the absolute biggest referee blunder of the night: not stopping the fight immediately after Hill’s leg shattered. I don’t care where you’re standing, an injury like that shouldn’t require Joe Rogan screaming at you to stop the fight.
Incidentally this was the same ref that stood up the guy who had just taken the other fighter’s back.
by George Lucas on Dec 11, 2008 4:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yup…that guy should not be reffing anything anymore.
by iiowyn on Dec 11, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah man, that ref got my blood boiling. Corey took a kick to the nuts at the start of the fight too and both fighters paused to let the ref step in… only problem, the ref didnt notice the groin shot :/
by Benicio on Dec 11, 2008 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A response of mine to somebody on Sherdog
When it comes down to it one of the brutal incidents was a freak accident, and this has happened in MMA before, just not on such a large stage and the other two incidents were partially due to slow stoppages by the refs. Everybody complains about quick stoppages but both the Saunders and the Cantwell fight should have been stopped earlier. The refs need to be aware who is in the cage. They were two first timers that wanted to show that they belonged in the UFC and they weren’t going to give up no matter what. I’m not putting this all on the refs because if the fighter chooses not to tap then he has to face the consequences, that’s part of being a fighter, but it is also the refs duty to protect the fighters from themselves.
by dedstrk316 on Dec 11, 2008 5:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So how do you actually feel about it?
by ununkvadrium on Dec 11, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I don’t really blame the injuries on the refs or really even the matchmaking. It’s regrettable that Al-Hassan had his arm injured badly, but it was ultimately his decision not to tap. I just don’t think he should have been in there against Cantwell at this juncture in his career. I don’t believe that the UFC was negligent in putting him in there. It would seem that, given the UFC’s status, they could have booked a more seasoned fighter, even on short notice.
The point is that I, and I believe many others, don’t care to see one-sided affairs. Sometimes, they’re unavoidable; this I realize. Furthermore, the UFC is generally the best example of excellent matchmaking. At times, however, some of their matches aren’t well made. Who didn’t think Swick would run through Goulet? The only objective that match accomplished was building up Swick. I like Swick, but I didn’t need to see him destroy Goulet.
by Cannon Jacques on Dec 11, 2008 5:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, a lot of other people might need to see Swick destroy Goulet. I.e. those who carry the sport financially. Same with Cantwell. Although in the latter case it was (maybe) not so clearly a mismatch a priori. Nothing wrong with gimme fights, imo, as long as they don’t have any impact on contendership.
by ununkvadrium on Dec 11, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t buy that argument. It’s not like Goulet was built up to be something special. Goulet took the match, so he deserved to get beat down. Swick certainly did his job, but I see the benefit of his dominating win as only marginal. He added another quick finish to the old video library. The betting odds told the story. Goulet’s chances were very slim, and I don’t believe that these type of fights – especially on the main card – do much for a promotion in the long-run.
by Cannon Jacques on Dec 11, 2008 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll agree with you, I think, on one point – this card was unfortunately relatively uncompetitive. People will ultimately want to see not only spectacular fights, but competitive such ones at that.
Now. This type of fight don’t do much for a promotion, you say. I disagree. Gimmies can serve a purpose inside a promotion, given that it isn’t the general concept. Building fighters for marketability is OK from a moral standpoint and, I guess, from a business standpoint as well. If you had said “this type of card” I’d have agreed.
by ununkvadrium on Dec 12, 2008 4:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The guy didn’t even blink or make a facial sign of pain that his arm broke. If he wasn’t on anything, he won my respect.
by Tommy7 on Dec 11, 2008 5:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not a break
His arm dislocated, which while not fun, isn’t the same as a break. I was trying to defend an armbar against a MUCH bigger guy about six months ago, and just the force of us both hauling in opposite directions dislocated my elbow. When it “popped”, we both stopped immediately. I flexed it, moved it around, didn’t feel much pain although it felt “funny”, then we started over. I didn’t really realize what I’d done. About four hours later, when the swelling kicked in, I was in agony. Two weeks ago, another guy at my gym did the exact same thing. A dislocated elbow is nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn’t necessarily hurt right away.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Dec 11, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly in some cases a clean break is much better than dislocation, especially in cases where you’re tearing ligaments or tendons.
by The_Gaijin on Dec 11, 2008 6:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
calculated beatdown
This is not my opinion, but maybe the mismatch of Cantwell v Al Hassan had something to do with the UFC thinking thousands of soldiers would love to watch a guy with a name like Razak Al Hassan get his ass beat…
by lightsout on Dec 12, 2008 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm a former
paratrooper with the 82nd (B Co. 1/325 A.I.R.) and I have to say I was a bit suprised they brought a guy in there with that name…
Personally, I don’t blame the refs for any injuries last night. They have a tough job and the sometimes the difference between outlasting a hold and breaking an arm is a milisecond.
Two fights in particular looked hard to judge when to end: the Wolff fight and Swick’s KO. In both fights, the guy getting beaten managed to present the appearance of intelligent defense long after it probably had acutally stopped being so. Unless the ref can get a clear view of one of the fighter’s faces, it just hard for them to make the call.
Oh, and lastly, just because a fight ends quickly doesn’t mean that the fighters weren’t evenly matched. Two fighters with strong offense can be evenly match but with such a small margin for error that one of them is destined to go down in flames and fast.
by Razreshat on Dec 12, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and lastly, just because a fight ends quickly doesn’t mean that the fighters weren’t evenly matched. Two fighters with strong offense can be evenly match but with such a small margin for error that one of them is destined to go down in flames and fast.
Certainly, this is correct. Koscheck/Yoshida is an example of a compelling matchup that was thoroughly dominated by one competitor. My only thought was that some of the matches we saw on Spike weren’t all that competitively constructed.
by Cannon Jacques on Dec 12, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
steve cantwell
For anyone who has ever rolled, you never want to get caught in a struggling to escape an armbar that rolls over like Cantwells did. Its nobodys fault, with all the adrenaline in the moment of the fight opposed my muscles an ligaments ? ouch. the only thing that was iffy was Cantwell walking around boasting about how he broke it. That was circa 1994. An you could see the corner man come in an tell him to chill out. However the ref who allowed Ben Saunders to abuse Brandon Wolff clearly was inexperienced. At the end of the fight you can see wolff was in a world of pain. Not to mention how much bigger Saunders looked.
by librachoke on Dec 12, 2008 11:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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