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The Case Against Not Obvious Rematches

Jake Rossen makes it:

After beefing up its roster with international talent and surprisingly adept "Ultimate Fighter"-bred participants, the UFC has returned to the photocopy machine, signing or reportedly considering matches that have already been definitively decided on multiple occasions.

Exhibit A: With Chuck Liddell having stalled out at 205 pounds, reports suggest he might slide up in weight. Considering his heavy hands and vaunted takedown defense, it’s an interesting hook -- unless he fights Randy Couture, a reputed possibility for a winter or spring event.

Couture/Liddell IV would likely be the first time a fourth fight has been arranged for warring parties in mixed martial arts. It’s no wonder: Three fights give you a pretty concrete indication of who the better combat athlete is, which is supposed to be the whole point of the sport. In an odd-numbered series, you can’t split the difference. (You can, however, split open someone’s face, as Liddell did to Couture on consecutive occasions.)

A fourth encounter, while preserving one of the UFC’s draws for a future heavyweight title shot, can only prove two negatives: Either Liddell has slowed down considerably and loses, or he’s still capable of beating Couture, which is a bit redundant at this point.

Rossen also states his criteria for holding rematches:

Rematches should have clear criteria for being signed: Either the earlier fight(s) had a suspect conclusion -- errant cut, questionable officiating or judging, bad hotel food -- or the division is so void of matchups that it becomes inevitable. Athletes can easily earn a second shot, but a third -- when the first two were definitive defeats -- is pushing it.

A fourth? C’mon.

Rossen's criteria is too narrow for my tastes. He doesn't allow for a rematch in the case where the first fight was evenly matched and a pitched battle but also offered a clear conclusion. In other words, it left fans wanting more despite the clarity of the outcome.

And my feeling on rematches that aren't obvious or exactly necessary remains the same: I understand the economic reality of Liddell vs. Couture IV and I will have to watch it, but I am not exactly enthralled at the idea of watching these men fight each other a fourth time.

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As Herring said after the Kongo fight, “I don’t think the world is ready for Nog-Herring IV.” And there’s good reason for that, Nogueira is 3-0. Under that scenario I agree with Rossen.

But if a series is 2-1, is it really that bad to have a fourth fight? If Rampage beats Silva this month, is either fighter conclusively better than the other?

Back to Liddell/Couture, I don’t mind fight four because I really don’t want to see them fight anyone else. They’re both in the twilight of their careers and neither will be significant parts of MMA in a few years. Looking at Sherdog’s rankings, I really have no interest with them fighting anyone in the top ten at LHW or HW.

So just stick ’em together in a new market and make some monies.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I understand your points. I still don’t have much interest in a fourth bout, but to each his own.

by Luke Thomas on Dec 1, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is… what if a series is 2-1… and they have a fourth fight and its 2-2… is a 5th fight then needed to decide who is the best?

anything past 3 is pointless. Especially win the wins in the scenario were finishes (like lidell finishing couture, wand finishing page, page finishing lidell, spider finishing franklyn, ect… none of these need a 3rd or 4th fight)

some rematches are great. Penn/GSP is great. The first fight was stupid close. Page/Forrest would be great. That fight outcome is still debated.

The ONLY way I could see a 3rd (when two were decisive) or 4th fight is if it were a title situation. For example, if Nog was the champ in the UFC and fedor was somehow magically signed… a 3rd fight would be necessary even though Nog was punished 2x in pride.

by dbcb on Dec 1, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wand finishing page… … none of these need a 3rd or 4th fight)

I don’t know if this inclusion was an error on your part, but I’m all for Rampage/Wand 3. I think Page’s development as a fighter and Wand’s recent losses make this a very interesting fight (not to mention the differences in rules/environment/etc. between Pride and the UFC which adds further intrigue to this fight).

by Estrada on Dec 1, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s certainly not “needed.” If you’re going to argue that, though, no fight is really “needed.”

Say ‘Page beats Wand on the 27th, they rematch next year and Page beats him again (decisively both times). A 5th fight certainly isn’t “needed.” You could easily say Wand was the better fighter in 03-04, and Page in 08-09.

But matchmaking isn’t necessarily about conclusively finding out who the better fighter is over a series of fights. And if we’re being honest, with two evenly matched fighters no practical amount of fights would prove anything one way or the other. For instance, let’s say in theory that we know for certain ‘Page is a 55/45 favorite over Wanderlei. You’d have to have them fight thousands (millions?) of times to prove that in the real world. The fact that Wand won two fights over ’Page means little in that regard.

With that said, matchmaking IS all about making relevant fights that also make money. So if ‘Page beats Wand and a year later people want to see that again, I’m all for putting on a fourth fight. Just like with Couture/Liddell here. From my viewpoint, I just don’t really care to see them against any other top fighters, so I like the idea of throwing them together for number four. I understand why some aren’t interested in the fight, and I wouldn’t exactly be parading in the streets over it, but I don’t think it’s a case of bad matchmaking.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2008 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The UFC is trying to keep the draw power of at least one of their major stars alive in a time where it is needed. If Randy and Chuck both lose their PPV credibility, Brock Lesnar is really the only huge draw, followed possibly by Georges St. Pierre. Matt Hughes will not be the same money making machine as he has been previously following his recent two defeats. It is unclear whether Tito Ortiz will re-sign with the company and even if he does, he too has lost a lot of his previous drawing power. Forrest Griffin is a proven fan favorite but it is unclear whether he can carry a pay-per-view on his name alone, with his two big fights being against perennial money makers Ortiz and Quinton Jackson. Anderson Silva is having trouble breaking the 300k-330k tier he has been hitting consistently with his main events.

In a time where the UFC needs superstars for the immediate future, it is a smart idea to keep either Chuck or Randy a viable draw. While it might not make the most sense from a rankings perspective, it is undoubtedly a marquee fights that will draw huge interest from the mainstream media as well as both casual and hardcore fans alike.

by dropkick101 on Dec 1, 2008 10:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The other thing that has to be considered, it seems to me, is whether the fighters have changed since the previous encounters. Since Liddell/Couture III, both fighters have changed quite a bit. Randy went up to HW, took the crown, seemed to keep getting better for a bit, sat out a year, and now looked game if overpowered in the Lesnar fight. Liddell also seemed to keep getting better for a bit, but has now hit a major slump and been knocked out a couple of times, lost a decision, etc. At this point in time, Liddell/Couture is potentially a much different fight than the last one (or any of the previous three, for that matter) because both fighters are different now than they were during that/those fight(s).

I’m not particularly keen to see the fight, either. I’d prefer to see Liddell moving up to HW in a more linear fashion, taking on somebody new and maybe “mid-tier” in the HW class to see how he will handle the change in weight class, etc. Let him take a couple of fights over the next year to work his way into the weight class and see where things are at that point. That’s just me, though.

by Kierkegaard on Dec 1, 2008 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you have a good point there. Chuck has lost some steam and many claim he isn’t as quick with his reflexes as he used to be. Randy has looked at the top of his game against both Sylvia and Gonzaga while holding his own against the man-beast Lesnar before getting overpowered. There is no doubt the UFC will push this in their advertising to further pique interest.

by dropkick101 on Dec 1, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For sure. Like I said, I think in many cases the amount of variables the rematch offers affects the appeal for people. This fight could turn out to be a barn burner and the changes the fighters’ have experienced adds some intrigue. Still, for me, not all that cised. I understand why other people might be, though, and I don’t judge them for it.

by Luke Thomas on Dec 1, 2008 11:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I’m not sure how cised I am either. Other than being a big Liddell fan and thinking about what a win might do to re-kick-start his career for a bit. I was more thinking in reply to Rossen’s thoughts about a fourth matchup not being necessary because three already tells you everything you need to know — he’s completely ignoring the way fighters develop and change (for better or worse) as the years roll by …

by Kierkegaard on Dec 1, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the argument, though I disagree with wanting to see Liddell against a mid-tier guy. Guys like him and Couture are on their last legs. At best, I’d say they each have 5 fights in them. There’s really no use in wasting those on mid-tier guys.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2008 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

first thing that came to mind was faber vs pulver this is a rematch that i dont wanna see they just fought this year and clearly faber was the clear winner.

by soulless on Dec 1, 2008 12:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. That matchup is beyond retarded.

by lbk on Dec 1, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think anyone is THAT interested in seeing Coulture/Liddell 4.

And from reports I have seen, I don’t think Chuck or Randy are thrilled with the matchup either.

This is a cash grab by the UFC and I am of the opinion there are plenty of other potential matchups involving both fighters that can be made. They don’t need to do this.

Plus, If Chuck loses to Randy his career is done. There is nowhere else for him to go.

by lbk on Dec 1, 2008 12:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Unlike boxing...

where if boxer A beats boxer B 3 times, there’s really no way boxer B will be able to beat boxer A the fourth time. However, in MMA, anything is possible. Fighter A may beat fighter B three times, if fighter B trains in a discipline that fighter A is weak in, fighter B could conceivably beat fighter A the fourth time with a good game plan.

Having said that, I think Couture would beat Liddell the fourth time. Couture has improved with age, but Liddell hasn’t fare so well. He’s turning into the next Ken Shamrock, skills and chin falls off a cliff as the big 4-0 approaches.

by cyph on Dec 1, 2008 12:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Liddell chin is one of the best in MMA, the idea that people all of a sudden think it’s suspect is beyond my understanding that punch by Rashad would have dropped anyone. Anyway rematches happen in all sports and the only thing more annoying than a supposed useless rematch is people bitching about them if you don’t like it don’t watch it it’s that simple.

by Raker on Dec 1, 2008 12:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The ability to absorb punches

usually does decrease with age and he has gotten dropped a few times in his most recent fights. Regardless of how solid the shots were (and the Rashad punch was damn near perfect) I think it makes sense for people to say “has his chin become a bit suspect?”

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 1, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s no doubt that the ability to absorb punches decreases with age. While that may very well be the case with Liddell, what we have seen lately is far from conclusive evidence.

He was KO’ed by both Rampage and Rashad with power shots that would have dropped anyone. Jardine dropped him with a punch but he immediately recovered. Wanderlei was teeing off on Chuck, as was Chuck on Wanderlei, and he wasn’t dropped. Granted, the punches connected by Wanderlei weren’t the looping, flush shots of ’Page and Rashad but they were powerful nonetheless.

I think it’s fair to say that the guys who Liddell beat up during his ‘reign of terror’ (Ortiz, Couture, Babalu, Horn) didn’t exactly have the one punch KO power of Rampage or Rashad. Also, another reason could be simply that his reaction time has slowed slightly meaning his reflexes are responsible, not so much his chin.

All I’m saying is there is no way to conclusively know as of right now if his chin has deteriorated. If he gets KO’ed by Couture Petruzelli-style than I think we can call a spade a spade.

by dropkick101 on Dec 1, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True...

I wasn’t saying I agree with the “his chin is crap” argument. just that there are legitimate reasons for some to be questioning it.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 2, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“Couture/Liddell IV would likely be the first time a fourth fight has been arranged for warring parties in mixed martial arts.”

Rossen missed the epic Fulton/Prazak series I guess

by smoogy on Dec 1, 2008 3:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

“Three fights give you a pretty concrete indication of who the better combat athlete is, which is supposed to be the whole point of the sport.”

I disagree with the premise. Maybe he was rushing through that part of the paragraph, but “who the better combat athlete is” is a muddled goal. How do you even define “combat athlete”? Does a fight really get won or lost purely on athletics? Don’t variations in the rules make such a goal impossible? Really, that’s just to concrete a statement about too mushy of a subject.

And thinking like this leads to the idea that the point of the sport is to find out who the “best fighter” is. If we define that by who wins the fight, should guys that don’t have what it takes to be champion be banished from the sport? Rich Franklin doesn’t stand a chance against Silva. Should we kick him out of the sport? Or is there something else he can do?

Fighting exists for a whole host of reasons. I like the idea of it being all about the purity of sport and the strive for blah blah blah, but I admit that one of those reasons is entertainment. And even I like entertaining fights! I want to know who wins a fight between a polar bear and the whole roster at Hammer House. GSP and BJ vs. Brock. The top 10 bantamweights against the top 3 heavyweights. Fedor vs. Choi didn’t prove anything, but it was pretty fun.

This doesn’t mean that I give up on the idea of serious athletic achievement. But I don’t pretend that the winner is the better man or that he deserved to win. When ‘Page slammed Arona, did he win by knockout or illegal head-butt? Don’t care. I was entertained.

Let’s not get caught up in some intellectual exercise about making fights that matter. Let’s just admit that we like watching two (or 12) people (or bears) go at it, and leave the great truths out of it.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2008 10:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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