Kenny Florian: Asterisk Man or Legit Title Contender?
by MMAEruption on Nov 8, 2008 1:08 PM EST
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PrintThe UFC is clearly positioning Kenny Florian for a title shot. But is he a legit contender? Or is Kenny the Asterisk Man?
I like Kenny Florian. He's a game opponent always striving to fight better competition, and more importantly, he's good for the sport. While The Ultimate Fighter has devolved into a circus of vomit-inducing food tampering, Kenny's friendly personality and professional appearance give the public a different picture of what an MMA fighter can be.
But has he proven himself as a top lightweight? I'm still not sold.
In fact, I call Kenny the "Asterisk Man" because I feel compelled to add an asterisk to just about every one of his victories in the UFC. For example:
Roger Huerta* - With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Roger is an average fighter who couldn't handle quality competition after being fed a string of easier opponents.
Joe Lauzon* - Joe gassed in the second round, essentially handing victory over to Kenny. Prior to that, the match was fairly close and Joe could have grinded out a win.
Din Thomas* - Din blew out his knee against Kenny, leaving Ken-Flo's submission victory looking better on paper than it did in reality.
Kit Cope* and Sam Stout* - Both these guys are one-dimensional strikers who obviously weren't ready for anyone with a decent ground game.
Alex Karalexis* - This is a cut stoppage victory over a guy who subsequently moved down to the WEC - not very impressive in my opinion.
So while the UFC is clearly positioning Kenny for a title shot, I'm not yet sold on his status as a title contender. From a technical standpoint, Kenny has the skills to make it to the top, but he needs an impressive win over a top-quality opponent to get me on board.
At UFC 91, he'll have one to tangle with in Joe Stevenson. Joe will be a huge test for Kenny, mostly because Joe presents a rough approximation of Sean Sherk - a guy who beat Kenny via sheer brute physicality at UFC 64.
Joe Daddy will not go quietly. He has a great ground game and brutal strength, and he'll likely push the pace following his recent fight with Gleison Tibau, the biggest lightweight fighter in MMA. Tibau is so big that Kenny Florian will feel like a little kid in comparison. While Joe came out on top in that bout, he didn't look particularly impressive until the guillotine choke was sunk in on Tibau, so he'll likely be pushing the pace against Kenny.
Has Kenny's technical skill-set evolved to the point where he can overcome a physically imposing top-10 lightweight? The betting odds say yes, but I say no.
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You know, one of the most underrated skills in mma is finding a way to win. This is what sets apart great fighters, imo. Florian definitely possesses this attribute. Of course you can say it is better conditioning, or a better chin or whatever, but when it comes down to it, pulling out a win from a precarious situation is great.
I’m not a huge Florian fan, but he usually finds a way to win.
Huerta, to an extent, he has proven what we all suspected, that he isn’t the next coming. However, to my dismay, lol, he is surely better than an average fighter.
Lauzon, so it is Kennys fault that he was better prepared conditioning wise? I like Creepy Joe, but he fairly lost that fight.
Thomas, while this is no measure of anything, except that Florian may have more structurally sound knees, you can’t dismiss a W on the record.
Kope and Stout, so what if they are one dimensional? He did what he was supposed to do and win. If they are one dimensional, I would assume that they are better at that dimension than Florian, so…
Karalexis, a cut is a win, simple as that.
Florian also took Sherk the distance in a very tough fight, which may even carry more weight than some of his wins. That should tell you that Kenny is legit.
As for Stevenson, what has he done that is more impressive than Florian? Stevenson was destroyed by BJ. I would say Florian’s striking is superior and he is a bjj blackbelt. I think this is actually a very good match between two of the UFC’s top LWs and could go either way.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Nov 8, 2008 3:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I was about to post something similar.
This post seems to say that because Kenny doesn’t knock people out, he’s not legit. That’s just silly. I know you didn’t say it exactly like that, but you’ve pretty much said every other way that he wins — whether it’s by submission, ref stoppage, cuts, decision, etc. — is bogus.
Who would Kenny need to beat (and how) to impress you?
That’s not the point. If Florian went five rounds and was utterly dominated a la Herring v. Brock or Quarry v. Starnes then we would be singing a different tune. Florian may have lost unanimously but it was in no way a blow out. He competed well against a top 5 fighter and former champion – and that was two years ago. He’s come a long way since.
Florian has beaten all comers. Huerta is not a top contender in the division but the fact that the guy went 5-0 in the UFC says something even if his opponents weren’t exactly extraordinary. Florian beat him fairly decisively. Joe Lauzon is very good and has beaten many top fighters at a very young age. Lauzon is not a newbie to the sport and the fact that many think he gassed is a testament more to the pace Kenny keeps in a fight than to Lauzon’s faults. Din Thomas got injured, yes, but I think it’s clear that Kenny was winning before the injury occured and that, if they were to rematch today, Kenny would be the odds on favorite and rightfully so. Stout is as tough as they come and Kenny beat him decisively. And as for the cut stoppage against Karalexis and the fact that Cope is horrible – a win is a win.
I could take a look at anybody’s record and pick it apart the way you did. Whether you win a fight by KO, submission, cut stoppage, injury, or because the other guys gassed – when you do it in the UFC multiple times in a row, then it seperates you from the rest because no matter how you did it, you got the W and the other guy didn’t.
Kenny Florian is legit and, no matter what happens against Stevenson, he is a legitimate contender.
If Kenny’s fight with Sean Sherk was in DREAM, they would have given Kenny the decision — that’s say’s more then anything else on his resume. In his upcoming fight with Stevenson I feel very comfortable with my prediction of bloody pools, & tweetie birds.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
Kenny is a much better fighter today than he was against Sherk
Which is not to say that he’d beat him in a rematch. But Ken is a contender and a legit top ten lightweight. I’m particularly impressed with his progress in the kickboxing arena (for which Dellagrotte is largely responsible). He should he poised for a title shot following his inevitable victory over Stevenson (who is no pushover, but that prediction is testament to Florian’s abilities). But should they decide to make him face Sherk once more, I’m afraid he doesn’t have an answer for his wrestling (not to mention, Sherk is also much improved in his striking since they last met).
Thats not right...
Brock Lesnar is a fighter being given an unjustified title shot (not that I’m not excited to see it) – but Florian??? I think if you take a closer look at most fighter’s records, you will see that they all have a couple ‘fluke’ wins. But luck does not a 12-3 fighter make. I agree with BJJDenver, the will to find a win is a highly necessary, but intangible quality. Even if the wins are not all highlight reel knockouts, how else would you gauge the rankings in a division if not for W’s and L’s. A win is a win – and never can it be a win with an explanation.
Further, Florian has had 10 fights in the UFC (8-2). He has certainly risen to the top of the division, been there (better than) surviving longer than most, now on a 5 win streak.
I never had any great affinity for Florian as a fighter. But I think to assert that he has no business being called a contender is just plain wrong.
Your asterisks are wack
Joe Lauzon’s style is to pour it on hard at the beginning of a fight. However, he would never be as dangerous early if he didn’t do this. Part of beating Joe is to outlast him early then he will slow and he is beatable. Thats just about what kind of fighter he is. So that win counts.
Also, I don’t think you can cast judgement on Roger Huerta yet. He gives the UFC six wins with 4 stoppages, then with one decision loss he isn’t a solid fighter? Sure their combined record in the UFC is 4-12, but six consecutive is difficult against any competition much more so guys who made it to the UFC. Has it crossed your mind that Huerta is good but Kenny is just really good?
The rest you are kinda right, but they are still wins and he gets much better every fight.
I appreciate all the comments here – but I just want to see Kenny prove himself against better competition than he’s faced in the past. A guy going for the LW title should be facing guys like Tyson Griffin, Frankie Edgar, Hermes Franca, and, of course, Sherk.
I think we all want to see the best fights possible, including names you have listed. The thing is, they can’t have just one contender, so pitting all the very top guys against each other may not be the best business decision.
In other words, if you have fighter A and fighter B, and both are in line for a shot, you don’t have them fight each other (though it would be great). Instead, you have the next two title shots.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
Yeah, he is. Since the Sherk loss he’s beaten 5 fighters, 4 by stoppage, with progressing level of difficulty each time. On top of that, you’re not even look at the victories over Robinson and Mishima, who are both respectable opponents. Huerta is still considered a top contender and now he’s fighting Joe Stevenson, former title challenger. Two fights in a row against top contenders – what’s the problem?
Just face it – the argument you have is fundamentally flawed.
Easy, Legit Title Contender.
If you really look at a lot of the contender’s you can ask if they are legit to go after the title. Patrick Cote simply did not defeat the greatest middleweights in the world to get to the title shot, he finished fights (Minus Scott Smith and Ricardo) but still he got a chance to fight for the title.
KenFlo has fought anybody the UFC has thrown infront of him. Roger Huerta at the top was a top 5 lightweight, and Joe Daddy is a top 5 lightweight as well. Din Thomas is a very crafty vet who will give fits to a lot of people. Also J-Lau is a very talented fighter who knocked out Jens Pulver, a former UFC champ.
Now, you throw Alex Karalexis, Kit Kope, Sam Stout in there, but that was during his early out of the TUF show. He has grown as a fighter.
I am sorry, but look at a lot of fighters earlier history of fights. They dont jump into the sharks. I mean seriously. Look at Forrest Griffin, Bill Mahood and Elvis Sinosic? Seriously? At least most of the men you have listed are still fighting in the UFC or WEC. But whatever.
Good point on Forrest. I still remember the R.I.P. Forrest threads on Sherdog before the Shogun fight. And Forrest stepped up and prove everybody wrong.
I seem to be in the minority in thinking Kenny will lose to Joe Daddy, but I’m eager to find out if Kenny changes my mind.
by MMAEruption on Nov 10, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Going to be an extremely difficult fight, but KenFlo has defeated.. (finished) black belt jitsu fighters. I think Joe Daddy is an all around phenominal athelete and is bar none one of the best lightweights in the world, I just think KenFlo will come into this match with another incredible gameplan that will pick apart Joe Daddy. As long as Kenflo can stay away from the Joe Daddy Choke, I think KenFlo should be fine, and I see these guys standing and banging it out untill KenFlo gets hit a couple of times and takes down Joe and cuts him. Finishing the fight via cut.
I’ve got to agree. Kenny Florian is cut from the same cloth as guys like Randy Couture, Jon Fitch, and Forrest Griffin – intelligent fighters who will outwork you. I think it’s the intangibles that will get Kenny the victory and earn him status as the clear number one contender to the lightweight crown. Whether Florian has the tools to somehow beat BJ Penn is a question for another day but, if victorious against “Joe Daddy”, no one will be able to say that he didn’t earn the right to try.
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