Does Mixed Martial Arts and the UFC Need a Cruiserweight Division?
by Luke Thomas on Nov 30, 2008 6:15 PM EST
in MMA News
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PrintIn my judgment, absolutely not. However, Franklin McNeil introduces the possibility:
A significant number of heavyweights currently tip the scales comfortably around 225 to 235 pounds. These are large men, but against Lesnar or even Shane Carwin, they'd find themselves at distinct size disadvantages.
The time might be ripe for a cruiserweight division in MMA. It is a problem boxing has already addressed.
All four major sanctioning organizations in that sport now have a cruiserweight division. But while the size difference between light heavyweights and heavyweights becomes more pronounced, mixed martial arts organizations aren't rushing to create a go-between division.
"I don't compare boxing with mixed martial arts, but certainly, the heavyweights in boxing have always been 200 [pounds] and you can weigh 400," UFC vice president of Government and Regulatory Affairs Marc Ratner told ESPN.com. "At least here we have a stopping point at 265. So I don't know if it will happen.
"These fighters are getting bigger, there is no question about it. But there's very few guys who are going to fight less than 220 against a guy who weighs 265, that's for sure. You will see a lot of guys in the 230s or 240s." It is likely that most fighters who step into the cage weighing between 220 and 230 pounds can't cut to 205 pounds. They have two choices: compete at heavyweight or find another line of work. Fighters that small are capable of defeating a giant like Lesnar, but the odds would be long. In no other weight class are fighters required to overcome such odds. It doesn't seem fair.
The case for a cruiserweight class isn't necessarily theoretically dubious. The idea that there is simply too much of an internal divide between the weights of the competitors and that that divide portends safety and fairness issues is admittedly a reasonable concern. The devil, of course, is in the details.
For starters, there are simply too few overall heavyweight competitors to make splintering an already weak division appropriate. Whether we can blame stick and ball sports for taking the larger athletes is a matter of debate, but we do know all MMA organizations but the UFC do not prominently feature heavyweight action (apologies to Shigeru Saeki for repudiation of Megaton action). There are almost no meaningful heavyweight fights abroad (save for a few in the UK), even the high-end Strikeforce rarely puts on heavyweight contests and the vast majority of regional shows in North America only have a small handful of heavyweight fighters who generally work in rotation on the smaller circuit. Stratifying a division this anemic may solve the problem of gross weight disparities between fighters, but it generates a brand new set of far more troublesome issues, most notably the addition of a class with far too few competitors that would in turn deplete the limited resources for the other heavyweight class.
Second, familiarity with the world of amateur wrestling is helpful here. Just as there is a larger weight disparity in the heavyweight class more than any other division in MMA, the same is true in wrestling. Look at the weight classes for high schoolers and collegiate wrestlers in particular. You'll notice after weight cutting and rehydration you can feasibly witness a difference of up to 80 pounds between two heavyweight wrestlers. The truth is many of the problems that plague MMA in terms of the number and quality of competitors in the heavyweight class are the same amateur wrestling contends with annually. But because the heavyweight class isn't as robust in either aforementioned characteristic, it does not make sense to further compound issues by adding a middle of the road weight class.
Lastly, a 20 or 30 pound weight difference isn't as problematic at heavyweight as it is at welterweight or bantanweight. While we always seek to have fighters enter their bouts as equally matched as possible, we should recognize a 20 pound weight difference between two fighters who are 240 and 260 pounds is not an overly problematic situation. Admittedly, the weight differential between a Randy Couture and a Brock Lesnar is considerable enough to warrant some inspection, but those situations are few and far between and can mostly be mitigated with proper medical screening and officiating. So while those instances are slightly troublesome, it's not clear the addition of cruiserweight division would, on balance, improve the safety or equalize the chances of winning for the smaller fighter.
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NOPE
randy chose to come in that light, but even if he came in a230, he would have been overpwered. i think hws that fight at 220-235 could cut to lhw(forrest walks around at 225-230 i believe). if they choose to fight at hw, thats on them. i dont like the idea of a crusierweight or a super hw division at all. i think the current weight classes are fine the way they are.
I agree that a cruiserweight division would further fragment an already thin division. I guess one could make the argument that bigger light heavies in the mold of Couture or Liddell who are nearing the end of their careers might be more likely to move up if they didn’t have to face giants like Lesnar and Carwin. Another division would probably introduce more problems than remedies, I’m afraid.
I don't see the need..
Arguably the best 4 HW’s of the last 5 years have been Fedor, CC, Randy & Nog, all of whom have weighed roughly around 225-235..
I don’t think 1 guy, Lesnar, being a huge heavyweight warrants triggering all of this debate..
I think this discussion maybe relevant in the future but right now I see it as an overreaction to one guy.
I mean this wasn’t a conversation previously when Tim Sylvia or “Big Foot” Silva was cutting weight to make 265. Why is it such a hot topic right now?
In my opinion this topic grew out of the excuses the Lesnar haters were making because of Lesnar’s size.
I think this article does a good job of pointing out the problems with this argument:
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=7664&zoneid=13
Most of all if you look at the statistics which that article points out the larger man loses more than he wins.
YES
It’s not competitive when you have guys that cut from 285 to make 265 going up against guys that walk around at 235 or so.
plus. you would have guys like Liddell, Anderson Silva, Brandon Vera, Forrest Griffin etc that could compete at a more natural weight of 225 or so instead of cutting tremendous amounts of weight to get to 205 or even 185.
I think in the next 2-4 years you will see an influx of guys that normally play sports like Football growing up making a transition to MMA. You are going to start seeing a lot of guys that can cut from 285 to 265 that will be too much for guys like Randy to handle.
Hell, you saw Lesnar (Only an infant in the sport) DOMINATE a savvy vet in Randy. He did that because of his size, speed and strength.
We need a competitive gap.
Having a weight class so that guys don’t have to cut weight to get to LHW is ridiculous. Randy was 220 pounds for the Lesnar fight and he’s only fighting at HW because he couldn’t cut it at LHW in the first place.
Brandon Vera was about 230 pounds at HW and complained all of the time that he didn’t like cutting weight. For his last fight, he lost all of his fat and was actually 203 pounds without cutting anything.
And finally, if you make a 230 pound weight class, Cain Velasquez would join it and dominate.
There’s no need for another weight class at this point, until the talent pool at HW gets larger. Eventually, it would be good for guys the size of Nog, Mir, Velasquez, Arlovski, who sit around 230-245 but don’t have the frame for LHW.
by bigweeze on Nov 30, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Cain would gladly cut from 250-255 and destroy this weight class.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 1, 2008 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
if randy beat brock...
… this whole debate never wouldve started. theres been plenty of fights in the past with considerable weight differences, and no one was asking for a change after those. while there’s certainly other arguments (which you discussed), i think alot of people are just not fans of lesnar as a champ.
brock
i think brock is a once in a lifetime athelete. there have been many his size or bigger (like bob sapp) but none with his speed or athleticism. i dont think it will be the norm for hw fighters in the future to be like brock, but we’ll see. if so, then we can talk about a super hw division (still dont like a cruiserweight division). brock has’nt beaten big nog, or fedor yet (if ever), so the jury’s not out on wether he is too big yet.
The only reason this is even up for debate is because former pro wrestler Brock Lesnar beat an MMA legend and the so-called MMA “purists” are looking for an excuse.
Gentleman, this is a fight sport. We need to see competitive, quality fights in order to keep the sport alive. At this juncture, one guy whose bigger and stronger then everyone else is not enough to make such a drastic change in the regulations that have worked for quite some time. If 230lb Nogueira is able to pull out the victory over Brock (after he beats Mir), will this debate continue? Will it even have any justification?
Let’s continue this conversation in a few years time when there is a healthy amount of quality talent at or around Brock’s size. Until then, this is an open and shut issue.
People have been talking about this well before Brock Lesnar came on the scene. This exact topic was being discussed after Monson/Sylvia.
by George Lucas on Nov 30, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Splitting hairs here.. but..
Heavyweight hasn’t always started at 200 in boxing.. In fact, it was at 190 at the beginning of the decade.
The Heavyweight Division Is Unique
I agree with Luke here. You’re talking about diluting the talent in the sport’s lightest division because of one fighter. The list of fighters that would be 235+ reads like a who’s who of the divison (Nog/Mir fight over it although they could probably cut, Gonzaga, Dos Santos, Kongo, Velaquez, plus Lesnar and Carwin). This could literally be called the Brandon Vera division.
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 30, 2008 5:23 PM EST reply actions
The divisions are fine as they are. If you’re going to fight at anything below 240ish at HW, you should either put on more mass or consider dropping down to 205.
Breen’s talked about this on his show, but it should be reiterated. There’s diminishing returns on increased weight. By that I mean, the difference between Fighter A at 155 and Fighter B at 175 is much great than the difference between Fighter X at 240 and Fighter Y at 260.
While an additional weight class has been discussed before, I agree that it’s not being talked about again because of Brock Lesnar and his potential to dominate the division over the next few years. It wasn’t a big deal with the Dan Bobish’s and Jimmy Ambriz’s of the world.
Regardless, that’s what makes the heavyweight division so interesting. There are more variables at play than at other weights.
by Mike Fagan on Nov 30, 2008 5:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The last
thing that mixed martial arts needs to do is start adding weight classes like boxing did now they have 17 different weight classes from straw weight to heavyweight.One of the appeals of the Couture/ Lesnar fight was the size difference.I don’t think any heavyweight fighter giving up a 40lb. weight difference is in danger.It’s not going to be the deciding factor in most fights.Fedor was giving up 30lbs. to Tim Sylvia did anyone think that was going to matter.
it is so sad franklin mcneil gets to write about MMA….it isn’t right he’s on MMA Live. He brings no viable viewpoints to the table. MMA is full of young guys who can cover this sport and do better interviews with a handicam than Franklin can. ESPN actually let’s him write this crap which is incredibly sad. I know so many other deserving journalists who could be writing relevant stuff on women’s MMA, Japanese fighters crossing over, up and coming fighters….instead he wants to put in a useless weight class…ugh…disgusting….
If your talking 235-240 vs 265 yeah, no big difference. But there is a big difference between 206 and 265. That is a 59 lb difference. So basically a lightweight 155lb fighting a heavyweight 215lb. A cruiserweight division would be ideal in the future, as new heavy’s come into the game. I don’t think it is a good idea presently.
So much wrong here.
1) How many guys are fighting at 206 in the HW class?
2) The difference between 206 and 265 is not the same thing as the difference between 155 and 215.
Not even close to the same thing...
power generated through punches alone is a huge difference. Natural strength at said weights…etc.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 30, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
That doesn’t count and you know it. The answer to the question is “too minimal an amount to ever matter.”
About as many as show up weighing 186 for a fight at light heavyweight. In theory, a guy could could be outweighed by a good 30-40 pounds in that class, too, if he were stupid enough to show up weighing 186 pounds.
by Richard Wade on Nov 30, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
The cruiserweight division existed for a need that no one in the public wanted filled and as such the fighters never cared about it. It was great for the sanctioning bodies, however. The UFC could use it for a “legends division” of sorts to give guys who don’t deserve world titles world titles or world title shots. Who cares if Liddell or someone like him isn’t a legit 205 or 265 lb contender? Create a new division and hand him a belt. A guy like Anderson Silva could even use it to win belts in 3 weight classes.
Is any of that good for the sport? Not really. Then again, most here don’t care about that. Its what is good for business now, and it very well could be.
This is conclusory. First off, most here do care about what is good for the sport. Secondly, it should be readily apparent to the astute, unbiased observer that what is good for business is (usually) good for the sport. The more eyes on the product means more money being put into it means better compensated and thus better prepared fighters, and ultimately a wealthier organization. What helped decay boxing was the influx of so many title belts. Would adding the obvious marketing ploy of a new belt to a Liddell v. Anderson Silva fight help business? Probably not. Any paying fan of the sport would watch that fight regardless and those aware enough to know there was a belt on the line would understand it was a cheap marketing ploy with no real significance.
There is no need for a cruiserweight class until the talent at the weight achieves the quality and quantity that would deem a new class necessary. That has not yet happened and will not happen in the immediate future. One man – Brock Lesnar – is not enough to warrant a new belt. If Shane Carwin becomes the phenom many are expecting – two men will not be enough. It will have to be a significant amount of fighters.
by dropkick101 on Nov 30, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The argument that the influx of title belts killed boxing or was at least a factor in doing so is indeed accurate, but so were tactics like doing repeated mismatches and the like. In comparison to the very short lived popularity of modern MMA, its biggest moments to the public have generally featured poorly matched main events featuring hype jobs and or blatant mismatches. Rarely do hardcore fans argue the negative aspects of Shamrock/Tito III.
This is all highly speculatory since Zuffa hasn’t started any additional titles or pushed for added weight classes, but its hardly like they are afraid to have multiple world title belts. They do now in 3 weight classes, down from 5 after cost cutting. Not a soul seems to want to bitch about that, either.
by D.Capitated on Nov 30, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
i dont’ see what the problem is.
Lesnar works hard to be as big as he is. His muscles make it so he has to be even more conditioned bc of the fuel he needs. Good for him if he found a way to have an advantage over other hw’s.
Other HW’s can adapt or get left in the dust. You can either eat better, lose the extra lard (most of these HW’s are not exactly lean) to get down in the 225 range and cut to 205, or they can bulk up. Its their choice.
There are a lot of criticisms of this new weight class idea that hold merit. I can’t entirely agree with your reasoning. If you are a heavyweight that walks around at, say, 235 or 240 while in good shape, cutting to 205 is not an option. At the same token, putting on a significant amount of muscle weight (10 pounds +) is much easier said than done. Try it sometime. If you work your ass off and are succesful, go for another 10. Good luck.
by dropkick101 on Nov 30, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
“putting on significant amount os muscle…. try it sometimes…”
you are talking to the the wrong person with that lol. my top hobby is lifting hahaha
but, adding weight while doing that much cardio is/would be very hard. But brock has mentioned many times how much he has to eat due to the fact his body wants to drop weight.
And really… if a fighters is in good shape at 240, he can lose 10 lbs of WEIGHT and then water cut to 205. Would he be as comfortable? no, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. like I said, a lot of this 240 guys are not exactly lean.
206-265 is ridiculous and quite dangerous. It’s 59 freakin pounds! 20 lbs should be the max (185-205), but even that’s pushin it. They should all be between 10-15 lbs. Yes, I know Fedor and Randy can do it, but it’s only a matter of time before another 220-230 lb dude gets seriously smashed fighting someone the size of Lesnar. It’d be cool with 206-235 and 236-265. At least that would be some improvment.
What 220-230lb guy got “seriously smashed” by Lesnar to start with? Randy wasn’t hurt at all after the fight, he got knocked out like guys at every weight class get knocked out all the time. For that matter in the UFC Randy Couture and Brad Morris are the only fighters under 230lbs currently so I don’t see where that would be a issue even if it was a problem. In the heavyweight division it’s Randy’s weight that is out of place.
It should also be noted that Pride never had any upper limit on heavyweight but their most dominant fighters were Fedor, Big Nog and Cro Cop. I can’t remember anyone seriously hurt fighting someone because they were much bigger than them in Pride, heck it was almost always the smaller guys who dominated. Dream and Sengoku currently don’t have a upper weight limit on heavyweight nor does Cage Rage in England. These large weight differences have been around in the sport for a very long time.
Who are all these heavyweights out there that are under 230lbs but can’t cut to 205? People keep tossing that around but honestly I don’t think anyone ever actually names any names of these guys. We know Randy can make the cut no problem he was the light heavyweight champ, he chooses to fight at heavyweight because he wants to and he took the belt he just lost from a champion that cuts to make 265(heck Randy came into the Lesnar fight smaller than he was for Sylvia and Gonzaga for that matter). Randy wasn’t “dominated” by Brock, it was a close fight and he got caught by a punch, the weight difference didn’t make any difference at all in how Brock won the fight. I don’t know why people are acting like Brock took Randy down and mauled him with this huge weight advantage because it was Brock that was grabbing the cage to keep Randy from taking him down, in the end it was Brock’s long arms that won him that fight not his large frame.
In a sport where guys like Anderson Silva and Rich Franklin’s walking around weight is close to 220lbs I don’t see why there is any reason for a weight class under 235lbs. There are very few heavyweights under 235lbs to start with because almost all the fighters around that weight cut to 205. Heck there are few heavyweights in MMA as it stands now if you add a cruiserweight division then even guys that weight 255lbs are going to be making the cut and the heavyweight division will pretty much cease to exist. For what it is worth the UFC was founded as a giant infomercial for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and the art was built around beating larger and more powerful men with skill and technique now 15 years later people are hung up on weight difference among guys who are all very large to start with being the deciding factor in fights? Heavyweight MMA isn’t supposed to be easy, and lets face it it’s not like guys who cut to make 265 are all undefeated these guys can and do loose all the time, in the heavyweight division it’s skill that wins fight not how much you tip the scales at, that’s one of the things that makes it so interesting.
One possibility is to shift the middleweight division to 180, the lightheavy weight to 195, and have a cruiserweight division at 210. Then you would see some WWs moving to the MW division, MWs to the LHW division and LHW and HW moving to the new cruiserweight division.
If you think the weight issue is a problem, I feel this is the only solution. Splitting the HW division in half would be a disaster.
I myself don’t think its a problem. If in years to come there are 10 dominant fighters cutting to 265, going on a rampage through the smaller HWs that have nowhere else to fight, this could warrant change.
I think it would be more feasible to change the weight limit to help make guys make the weights easier i.e. change the limit for Light Heavies to 210 lbs then guys who fight at 233 lbs might consider making that weight.
The problem is heavyweight is the only weight that the majority of figthers don’t come in on the weight limit or just slightly below.
GSP always comes in at 170
Silva always comes in at 185
Griffin always comes in at 205
I could go on. If you can make the weight class below most fighters will cut to make the weight. That’s why you won’t see BJ Penn weighting in at 156 when he fights GSP next year.
All this rubbish regarding the weight class minimum at 206 and ending at 265 is rubbish. No one in their right mind would fight at just above the minimum a weight class.
Werdum showed up with 20 extra pounds. I`m not sure he looked all that terryfying to me. And I don`t get all this talk about it being dangerous with the big weight differences? Vera vs Sylvia anyone? If you get hit by a 240 pounder that has some juice in his punches, it`s lights out. HW is dangerous. That`s why they pay them. Anyone around here that think that Sherk/Griffin could have been standing toe-to-toe like that for 3 rounds without a KO if they were weighing 220 pounds?
This thinking is dangerous...
If equity was the aim, then we’d create a division every 5 pounds. That worked out GREAT for boxing! Bring up this cruiser weight question again when the general consensus is that Brock Lesnar would beat Fedor. Until then, tell McNeil to STFU.
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