Last Word From Me on FitchGate
I'm personally worn out of the whole affair. I need a drink at this point. Here's what I'll say: I'm glad Fitch is back with the UFC. Other than that, not much of my views are changing. I still believe the UFC's licensing and merchandising deals with their fighters are onerous and the fact that fighters no money from DVD or video game sales - two of the biggest money makers in the business - is sickening. But Fitch and his management decided to sign the agreement on a cost-benefit basis. And for those of you who believe Fitch was wrong all along even if the UFC was a little heavy-handed, I understand your argument. I think it's a fair point even if I find blow back against contractual demands any union in the land would repudiate a relevant concern here.
But I don't think anyone should say the day was wasted. It is situations like these that allow us to flesh out the problem, pick a side and learn more about the inidivudals involved. I consider that anything but a wasted day. The commenters on this site help everyone else through a shared conversation. If you go to bed today without having learned anything then this isn't the site for you.
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74 comments
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Comments
“Well that was a waste of a day” – Myself
Whoops
by Day Man on Nov 20, 2008 7:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Shit, I got two rec'd fanposts and one fronted
I take back wanting to undo the previous 18 hours.
I’m glad Fitch is back. I’m off to get some Crown!
by subo on Nov 20, 2008 7:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully this will give the UFC the benefit of the doubt next time people all decide to freak out. But it probably won’t.
by dumbwhiteguy on Nov 20, 2008 7:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nice Write Up Luke
I agree with you 100%.
Shame some people around can’t take different opinions.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Nov 20, 2008 7:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Shame some people around can’t take different opinions.
by mythbuster on Nov 20, 2008 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, someone my “agreed” went away when I hit ‘post’. But…
agreed.
by mythbuster on Nov 20, 2008 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I learned this site is good for an enlightening discussion, entertainment, and for keeping up with MMA news as it happens.
That also means I learned this site is for me.
Keep up the good work.
by mattman73 on Nov 20, 2008 7:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
As I mentioned before on a previous post, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There will be more problems like this in the future. The UFC is lucky it was just Fitch and not a major super star with actual marketing and PPV pull outside the hardcores. (Sorry, but it’s true. I like Fitch, but he’s no Lesnar when it comes to name recognition) If the UFC doesn’t get a fair handle on this stuff, there will be bigger problems should a major, marketable name decide he doesn’t like the contract put in front of him. I suppose special deals could be cut for special circumstances, but it doesn’t solve the greater problem.
I love the UFC and will continue to support them, but they really do have to get a grip on this stuff.
by pud333 on Nov 20, 2008 7:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me of something my grandfather told me...
"Boy, you gonna be in some situations where everybody is angry as shit. And when they stop being angry as shit, they gonna say ‘What the fuck was we angry for?’ It’s because you believe in somethin’ boy. When you believe in somethin’ you argue for that shit.
Now go get my tobacco before I tan yo’ hide."
by Tonley on Nov 20, 2008 7:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’m taken aback by how many reflex UFC haters there are. I think it may have to do with personal political views, if you think corporations are inherently evil and that jobs should just be created for people for no reason, then any action taken by a company is immediately suspect.
It’s surprising because MMA is basically a dog eat dog world, you win or you lose, that’s it. You don’t get to start off on an even playing field and the best fighters work their way to the top on the merits. That’s the free market.
by dualdiagnosis on Nov 20, 2008 7:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m taken aback by how many reflex UFC haters there are.
I don’t think it’s hating the UFC so much as responding to the fact that Dana and co. have a reputation (rightfully deserved or not) among certain circles of signing fighters to one-sided contracts.
by Tonley on Nov 20, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I come off as a UFC nuthugger to a lot of people. Personally, I agree with most of what the ATT president said – the UFC gets a bad rep for being this evil empire but in reality, most of the time, they treat the fighters very fair.
Today, that was not the situation. We don’t have all the specifics and all the facts. Based on the information we do have, I think the UFC handled this situation very poorly and the hard-line business tactics came off very unfair.
by dropkick101 on Nov 20, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not even go with some people thinking this was a ploy ala good cop/bad cop by Zuffa. Why do things the easy way when you can do it the bad way and sully your reputation at the same time.
by cyph on Nov 20, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What happened today will have far reaching concequences. In this dispute and the EXC auction I think we are seeing the seeds of a fighter’s union. Zuffa can only keep shoving people around like for so long untill there is a backlash.
by Ubernoober on Nov 20, 2008 8:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I wanna know how many people
Voted for Obama but think Fitch was wrong you hypocritical tweeks
by skwirrl on Nov 20, 2008 8:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
…no politics. Only warning. I know you aren’t being overly “political” but to reference anyone’s voting choice and offer an opinion of said choice goes against one of the main BloodyElbow rules. Sports = yay, poitics = ban.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 20, 2008 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why aren’t you mad at fitch for being a hypocrite?
here are some of his quotes:
“We thought that was kind of crazy,” Fitch said. “Why would you sign anything away for your lifetime?”
“I just hope the other guys, the younger guys, everybody else involved, doesn’t let them do this,” Fitch said. “Stand up for yourself. Stand up for your rights. If you don’t like an agreement or you’re not comfortable with it, don’t sign.”
So how can you go out and say these things and then dick tuck and sign… either he was a complete moron for saying these things and believing these things or a complete moron for then signing.
by mmalogic on Nov 20, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
It cannot be both – he was either dumb then or he’s dumb now. How mmalogical. Rec’d.
by subo on Nov 20, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hypothetically...
If I were to ask why mmalogic’s green, would I be laughed at/flamed?
by EnsignFrog on Nov 21, 2008 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's because he breached the threshold
of Rec’s (which apparently has been changed to 3, after a suggestion to do so in a previous thread) and so it gets extra decoration.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that. Kind of a shame, I liked it at 5. But ok :)
by mythbuster on Nov 21, 2008 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
5 was painfully hard to get on a comment. I like 5 for an article and 3 for a comment.
by szucconi on Nov 21, 2008 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that was the point? Only the really special ones got colored, or rec’ed up. But I saw yesterday that someone asked it to be reduced to three, so I understand it.
by mythbuster on Nov 21, 2008 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unless someone asked for rec’s when have you seen a comment get 5. virtually never thereby rendering it meaningless. If it needs to go up once people do it a lot then fine, I will support that. I hate the idea anyway, but only because the green is distracting.
by szucconi on Nov 21, 2008 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I’m slightly color blind, and the rec’ed comments and the new comment are pretty much the same color to me. So maybe I’m biased ;)
by mythbuster on Nov 21, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 21, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent. Thanks to bugging Nate, it’ll only take two more recs to green that incredibly useless comment. :-)
by Richard Wade on Nov 21, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too. The man, not the post, deserves the recognition in this instance.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was an interesting look at UFC contract negotiations if nothing else. Granted, it looks silly now, but I enjoyed debating it while it lasted. Now it’s time to kick back, relax, and watch a some free mma streaming on sherdog.
by Andy R on Nov 20, 2008 8:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Here’s what we know…
No mma organization pays its fighters revenue on dvd’s and video games.
Can we just for now be grateful there is an organization that actually pays it’s fighters, actually puts on shows, and they are pretty damn good?
Can we at least solidify this and make sure the sport has a foot hold for now and be happy that fighters are making good money doing what they love especially in this economic climate.
Once the expansion is complete then cry all you want about minimum pay, insurance, unions, licensing, wah , wah…
Right now there is a major economic shift going on and worst case scenario what will happen if north america can’t sustain mma anymore ala japan?
Well guess what there are people who aim to make sure that doesn’t happen with reinvesting into different markets, pushing sanctioning, so no matter what happens MMA is here to stay.
Now will money be made by this? sure… but that means fighters will get paid.
We had a cuban missile crisis in that Dana cut a whole camp…
If people push he will push back… believe me alot of things can be done by zuffa to “walmart” this thing for these fighters and it will get worse for them not better… It’s not something they want to do but have the ability.
So the smart agents know when its “healthy negotiating time” (which Zuffa understands and welcomes) and when it’s “don’t fuck with Dana time”.
It’s the morons who want to push buttons when they don’t need to… especially when it’s a futile battle.
by mmalogic on Nov 20, 2008 8:46 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
You may very well be right. Let’s see what happens.
by Luke Thomas on Nov 20, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would trust what dude says.
http://mma4real.net/
by Tha Realness on Nov 20, 2008 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else feel like the Jon Fitch saga packed a week’s worth of news into one day? Jeeeez.
by Mike Fagan on Nov 20, 2008 9:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Definitely. The level of interest this sparked in the MMA blogosphere just goes to display how passionate we all are about this sport. The second the news hit everyone split two ways – on the UFC side or on the side of Fitch. I don’t know anything for sure but I’m willing to bet part of the reason the parties reaced an agreement so quick had to do with the shitfit we threw in favor of Fitch.
by dropkick101 on Nov 20, 2008 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t know how you could come to that conclusion.
The conclusion they came to was the exact conclusion that Dana wanted them to come to yesterday.
by Phildo on Nov 20, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Whenever I get worried about what my next mma related move will be. I just sit back and wait for Dana to tell me what I should be thinking. Then I act accordingly to the wishes of Kommisaar White.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Nov 20, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And conversely I think that:
a: Fedor isnt a top 10 heavyweight
b. Tito ortiz,Tim sylvia, and andre arlovsky are sure as hell no Houston Alexanders
c. Jon fitch sucks. But now is awesome
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Nov 20, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there’s much chance at all that a handful of fans throwing a hissy fit on the internet had anything to do with the outcome.
by Richard Wade on Nov 20, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I for one found it very interesting reading through the amazing amount of posts and commentary from everyone.
I especially enjoyed the dialogue on US health care, auto industry, baseball and other union related topics whilst still being relevant to MMA. Nice work!
by Benicio on Nov 20, 2008 9:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bloody Elbow: “If You Get Paid Hourly This Is the Best Place to Spend Your Time”
"Increasing Labor Costs To Employers Across the Country… One State At A Time "
by mmalogic on Nov 20, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This topic
generated more comments than the UFC 91 event did during that 24 hour period, it seems.
Impressive job by the majority of posters staying on-topic and respectful.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 20, 2008 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we found out that the UFC merchandising contracts are not as bad as they were made out to be. If the ATT guy was truthful about the nature of the contracts than I don’t see what the problem is.
by Dropkick434 on Nov 20, 2008 10:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow, i dont check b.e. for a day and a half...
… and all hell breaks loose. looks like i’ve got some reading to do!
by woooburn on Nov 20, 2008 11:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
somehow reading this story reminds me of mel gibson in braveheart screaming, “FREEDOM!!” It may sound cliche, but i still believe in having rights whether or not i choose to exercise them or not, or whether or not they may ever materialize. if someone wants to take away those rights, and then threatens my livelihood if i don’t give them away according to the “FAVORS” that i need to comply with, then that seems a bit unethical to me. and before everyone says, "they’re a private co./ don’t work for them, etc. etc….i agree w/ that, but only to a point. saying something like that is only valid if you have another company or organization to go to. otherwise, if you only have pretty much ONE choice, then that option sort of becomes moot and meaningless.
can i choose then to not be a fighter – sure. but how logical or practical is that? especially in terms of the age, training, money and lifelong dedication spent towards being a pro fighter. which is why i say that………..
i cannot wait for the day that another promotion is able to truly challenge the ufc so that when they pull their strongarm tactics on the fighters, they can actually say “f*ck u dana” and go elsewhere and really have a place to earn a living. for all the bad crap spoken about the other organizations, it seems they at least didn’t squeeze the lifeblood out of their fighters just so they could earn every red cent from them. to go back to something very relevant that luke thomas posted in one of the many fitchgate stories: he asked several ?‘s re: why the contract needed to be exclusive, why is it absolutely nonnegotiable, why cut fitch completely instead of just out of the game & is this more personal w/ zinkin than w/ fitch himself? the truth is, there really are no answers to these questions that can justify the lifetime issue and the nonpayment to the fighter, including upon his death. & it does not matter to me that currently no org. pays their fighters for dvd’s or the like; they should & hopefully will in the future if the fighters get a union or something similar in terms of banding together.
again, it goes back to freedom and rights. the ufc is categorically trying to take them away, and b/c they are the only real game in town, they can pretty much force the fighter’s hand if they want to eat & continue to live. you can argue all u want that they (the ufc) have the right to do this, and while that may be true, it does not necessarily make it right or fair or ethical.
i hope ea sports makes a video game and asks fitch to be in it and then let the ufc sue and have their contract declared illegal. that would be the sweetest revenge. i know fitch had to capitulate b/c of monetary reasons b/c there just aren’t too many places to go at this juncture. fitch may never have another video offer, but the fact that he could & now cannot exercise that right is the main crux of the problem for me. the pt. is giving up a right that you have as a person and as an employee of a company and giving up that right due to pressure of not being able to thrive b/c there isn’t enough competition. at some pt. what may seem like a small silly video game can lead to larger issues and rights that slowly are devalued by strongarm tactics.
so much for freedom of autonomy. as fitch said, swick has a “special” deal for a video game so he’s not affected the same way as fitch is; and who knows how many other fighters are exempt from the ufc’s special brand of “offers they can’t refuse.”
maybe it’s time for a ufc – vegas tea party……w/ the aka boys leading the way. :-)
by theflyingtsunami on Nov 20, 2008 11:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m actually hearing now they’re going to do Shields-Fitch in the UFC… the dream MW match for a competing org. The British were never this ruthless.
by subo on Nov 21, 2008 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Moral of the story?
For me, the lasting impression that I’m left with from all of this is that Lorenzo needs to keep Dana on a shorter leash. “Ef that guy” is not good for business (unless contract disputes have started selling PPVs) when it concerns a ranked fighter/contender. The fighters are not the antagonists in this story and it’s sad that fans have to decide about their loyalty to fighter or promotion in these matters.
by Jaydoggydog on Nov 21, 2008 12:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Alright , I'll bite. What would you do if a few fighters
said “were not playing, Dana. That contract is a "no can do”."?
by dualdiagnosis on Nov 21, 2008 12:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’s say here’s the pink slip good luck with Afllcition, it was always pretty simple to me either Fitch would end up like Matt Lindland or he’d smarten up and sign the deal. Looks like he picked the smart choice, Dana in the end got exactly what he wanted he made an example of Fitch and AKA and got them to sign on the bottom line. Lorenzon them played good cop and allowed Fitch to try and save some face but in the end just like Randy and Tito he was humbled and hopefully learned his lesson for the future.
by Raker on Nov 21, 2008 1:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lindland... Well he did alright with Affliction
Especially considering his style isn’t marketable and he made what a mid-tier fighter makes in 8-10 fights in the UFC in just 1 fight with Affliction.
by skwirrl on Nov 21, 2008 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hero of Blogland, The Man They Call 'Fitch'
Fitch, the man they call Fitch
He fights to be rich
but he still feels poor
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for
Our Jon, he refused to
be Dana’s bitch
The hero of Blogland
The man they call Fitch
Our Fitch saw the fighters’ backs breakin’
He saw, and felt their lament
And he saw that Dana White takin’
every dollar, and leavin’ ten cents
So he said “You can’t do that to my people.”
He said “You can’t take away our souls!”
So Fitch got to thinkin’
and he called up Zinkin
And got himself early parole
He used to be rich
but now he is poor
Stood up to the man
and he got what for
Our Jon, he refused to
be Dana’s bitch
The hero of Blogland
The man they call Fitch
Now here is what separates Talent
from common folk like you and I
The man they call Fitch
Who would be no man’s bitch
couldn’t kiss all that money goodbye
Oh but he couldn’t talk to Dana
because he wanted some respect
He talked to Lorenzo
who was kind and gentle
and signed, after having time to reflect
He’s back to bein’ rich
but he still feels he’s poor
Stood up to the man
and gave him what for
Our Jon, he refused to
be Dana’s bitch
The hero of Blogland
The man they call Fitch
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 1:33 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I hope nobody's offended.
If you’ve never seen Firefly, here is a youtube link with the song as the backdrop to a character tribute to the character “Jayne” from the short-lived series. The above song is to that same tune.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 1:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
Now I don’t feel like the biggest geek here.
by asa on Nov 21, 2008 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a bigger geek because I watched Firefly
or because I re-wrote the lyrics to a rather comical series of flip-flops by an MMA fighter? I’m ok with either, just want to know which ;)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, if you would have finished with, “just want to know the sitch,” it would have been a perfect storm of Whendon-ness.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 21, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
I’m not quite that immersed in the Whedon universe. I absolutely fell in love with Serenity and Firefly, in that order, and would like for him to make another similar shot at some point.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 21, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
taking money from others...
….I’ve read alot of bitching today about how dare the UFC take money (or rather not give) money to fighters for this or that.
Yet at the same time they visit a site that rips and post news from an exclusive service (Wrestling Observer), is this not taking money away from Dave?
Sure is.
by RipeTide on Nov 21, 2008 7:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No, it sends traffic his way. Whenever someone links to anything I write, I rejoice. You know why? Because it sends traffic my way. That’s the way the Internet works. As a writer, you WANT to get linked.
But if you don’t believe me email Dave yourself so he can also tell you you’re wildly off the mark.
by Luke Thomas on Nov 21, 2008 7:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But there are those who rarely link back to Dave and often ripoff content. In this case maybe Dave doesn’t mind so much, but you have to pay for the Wrestling Observer and the people on this site don’t pay for it. So its like a free mirror of a site that you would have to pay for. Like if I paid for the UFC vault and downloaded all the fights and posted them on here for everyone. Sure the UFC would love the traffic on the vault, but I don’t think ripping off there content would sit to well.
by szucconi on Nov 21, 2008 9:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Might as well. Everyone rips of Dave Meltzer.
by cyph on Nov 21, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't Meltz's target demo though.
He doesn’t make much off of MMA-only fans. Most “hardcore” fans don’t like puro for various reasons, so I don’t think he’s hurting from a loss of revenue.
Besides, even in pro-wrestling circles he gets quoted (but never entire articles) with a link. He makes money in the pro-wrestling domain because he’s always got advance news for fans who thrive on knowing who’s gonna win and who’s getting a push ahead of time. When everyone says he knew first, people start gong to him for advance info and blogs/webmags for editorializing. Add in gamblers and you understand why the snippets don’t hurt him.
you make a valid point in general that many don’t post links or some people even quote entire articles from sources. I’ve heard people say that to that “I’m nobody and no one reads my blog, so who cares.” The blogosphere sure is a weird place.
by asa on Nov 21, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“I’m glad Fitch is back with the UFC.”
To what end? Do we see him developing into a threat in the welterweight division? I mean, he’s 3 years older than GSP, and not getting any younger. Is he going to overtake the younger, more athletic, and more well-rounded GSP? Or are we hoping he’ll make a really good gatekeeper?
I don’t have anything against the guy. He’s a tough scrapper, a good wrestler, an okay striker and an okay submission guy, but I don’t see a lot of people listing him as their favorite fighter. Was anyone ever thrilled with Jon? Are people calling the UFC daily asking when Jon Fitch will fight again?
Again, I like the guy well enough, but what exactly does the UFC lose if he doesn’t sign? Seems to me the best he can hope for is being the Rich Franklin of the welterweight division: tough enough to beat almost all of the contenders, but never going to be a threat to the champ.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 21, 2008 11:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
And even then he’d be Rich Franklin without “former champion” in front of his name.
by Richard Wade on Nov 21, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t the whole point of having him around that he was the captain of the Purdue wrestling team and that his (new) wrestling technique was unstoppable? Now that he’s been thrown around like a rag-doll by the guy who never trained wrestling until he was something like 25…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 21, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t recall that, but sure why not.
by Richard Wade on Nov 21, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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