A New Weight Class Part 2: The Heavyweights
Enough about the Super Heavyweights, there just aren't enough of them yet to really make a Super HW division viable. I think the misnomer here is that just because you weigh more than 225, you'd be fighting in the 225+ weightclass -- that is far from true. There are quite a few HW fighters who tip the scales at 230, 240, 250, or even 260, but that doesn't mean they should be fighting at that weight. Brock Lesnar, to my knowledge is one of a handful (under 5) of people who CUT WEIGHT to reach 265. That is to say, he really weighs around 280, IN SHAPE. I'm sure, several months from a fight, he can be scaled in at 295. But the important point here is that the rest of the division isn't cutting weight, in fact a good percentage of them look down right dopey at 250 pounds.
This is more than just a testament to Brock's huge stature, this is a testament to something that he displays and that few other Heavyweights display: the mental fortitude it takes to cut weight, and all the unpleasantries that go along with it. This, to me, is one of the great unforeseen benefits of a new weight class. It forces all the fat-asses to get into shape as they make their cut to 225. Also, this is the main reason I believe that 225 is a better cut-off point than 235, as others have suggested.
Why did Brandon "the truth" Vera think he was gonna be HW champion first, and then move his way down to become Light HW champion? Why did Randy Couture move up to HW after he gave up hope on Light HW? Why are there so many heavy weights who could easily fight at light heavy weight, but don't? Because it is a weight class without discipline! Finally, we see a heavy weight fighter with discipline and we are astounded. I mean there is a reason the HW division was languishing in the UFC: because all the really good fighters work hard and make the cut to 205. Anderson Silva cuts all the way down to middle weight for christ sake -- and so could Vera! Would you rather fight a 230 pounder who is overweight and kinda lazy, or a 205 pounder who is cut and hungry? Both Vera and Couture said the former.
One of the big eye openers for me came during the MMA Live broadcast from the UFC 91 weigh-ins. Stephen Bonnar offered a tremendous amount of insight, as well as a transparent dislike for the weight cutting process, and even Franklin McNeil had something to say that was enlightening (of course it was something that Florian had told him), and then it was Mir's turn. And it was more than just that arrogant smirk that I have become so accustomed to, it was a sense of getting away with something he shouldn't. He really had nothing to offer other than the fact that that was a major inconvenience that he didn't have to deal with (and he gave some bull shit explanation for why that wasn't a problem for him). But the truth is that weight cutting is not necessary for him, and in fact, getting lean isn't important for him either. This is not unique to Mir, many heavy weights are much heavier than is ideal for them as fighters. And there's really no motivation for an average heavy weight to get into shape. If you're a hungry fighter, then you move to 205, and if you're not a hungry fighter then you get beat by Randy Couture and you say, "Well it was Randy, what was I suppose to do against the greatest", and you use your skill to beat a lesser opponent (tank abbot for example) and earn your keep.
Would Mir, Gonzaga, Werdum, etc. benefit from a forced weight cut? I say hell ya. Look at Ganzaga in his last fight, I mean that was a can if I ever saw one. The UFC can't afford to get rid of all the fat asses. I mean they made an example out of Werdum, but I don't think that was enough to straighten out the division. In my book, Dos Santos is the best thing in the division right now: a big, agile, brazilian, with heavy hands. Lets see some of those other fat asses get KO'd by the young and hungry Dos Santos. Lesnar is a different beast than Dos Santos. When Lesnar beats your fat ass down, you always have the excuse that, "hey, it was Lesnar, he's just too damn big, what was I suppose to do?"
Hey, maybe if Mir had to get fit, and had to cut to 225, he wouldn't have got the shit kicked out of him by a guy who could cut to 185 if he wanted (Brandon Vera). I say, force these guys to get into shape, no more excuses.
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28 comments
Comments
I know that in high school
I purposefully wrestled my actual weight because I had so much more energy than my opponents it was mind-boggling. I could literally feel them break in the 3rd round while I still had a push or three in me. I know that advantage isn’t enough against a guy like Brock, but it probably should be acknowledged whenever weight cutting is discussed.
And I was never a national or even state champion caliber wrestler, but the difference in cutting just six or seven pounds (takes like an hour of good, hard work with thick sweats, if you’re properly hydrated to begin with) and then re-hydrating was more than I wanted to surrender.
Just my $0.02
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 18, 2008 10:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
As you know...
There are two kinds of “weight cutting”: the weight that you lose when you get in shape and tone your body; and the cutting that is done when you dehydrate your body and thus lose a lot of energy. I was talking about the former. Currently, many of our heavy weight fighters do neither of these.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 18, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One of those is simply losing weight and the other is referred to as cutting. It’s individually definable.
by Blackout612 on Nov 18, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, among professional mma athletes, eating uber healthy and working out several times a day is not something they choose to do ALL THE TIME. They start doing this a month or two before a fight and it results in weight loss. Makes sense to me. Unfortunately, many athletes in the heavyweight division never do this.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 18, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, no.
Among professional MMA athletes, like among those we refer to as ‘people’, everyone is different.
There are fighters who are gym rats – literally in the gym hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week, all year round, regardless of a pending fight. There are fighters out there who train when they have a fight coming up and then after the fact are nowhere to be seen.
There are fighters who consider their diet a huge aspect of their lives and watch every calorie. There are fighters who maybe only pay attention if it starts to become a problem. There are fighters who don’t pay attention at all.
At the same time, there are guys who consistently weigh a certain amount regardless of whether they are in the gym or going diet crazy and they know, without fail, they simply need to cut, say, 7 pounds of water weight before a fight and they’re good. Then, there are also guys who do what you say.
Point is, don’t generalize. Fighters are people. Everybody is different.
by dropkick101 on Nov 18, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
woa... settle down Captain Politically Correct!
Are you denying that there are some serious fat asses in the heavyweight division. Just put yourself in their shoes. Would you want to get yourself in shape if you could fight in the UFC, and order out every night at the same time.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 18, 2008 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about cutting the fat from your diet?
by bigweeze on Nov 19, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In one of Dana’s blogs Lesnar said his weight was 276lbs and that he really doesn’t cut that much weight at the end. They were talking on one of the Spike specials on Lesnar about how he has problems keeping weight on when he is training for a fight. The WWE line that he was 300lbs was pure WWE.
by who me on Nov 18, 2008 11:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lesnar is to 276 as Mir is to 236.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 18, 2008 11:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, more like...
Lesnar is to 276 as Mir is to 226
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 18, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The athletic commissions, the UFC and even the fighters aren’t complaining about weight classes and when has Dana White given a rats ass what guys posting on the internet say about anything. Honestly why would Brock lie about weight in Dana’s video blog?
by who me on Nov 19, 2008 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not saying that Lesnar is a lier. only that mir is a fat ass. BTW, Frank Mir is one of my favorite fighters & MMA personalities. I salut a guy who can make a career in this sport, especially without having to work out too much.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 19, 2008 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point is...
..Lesnar is well aware that size can be important, and he works to keep his weight up (in the vicinity of 265). At least, that seems to be implicated by the comment that it’s easy for him to lose weight/difficult to keep weight on while training. He’s probably very dilligent about maintaining a specific regimen and diet.
Have any of the detractors considered it in that light? That perhaps he works hard to keep weight up, whereas fighters in other classes (with much smaller windows of weight distribution) have to work to keep their weight down? Maybe he works to keep on that 278 so he can cut down to 265 at weigh-in; knowing full well that he’s maximizing his size advantage.
by Blackout612 on Nov 19, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yea they specifically addressed that in the tv special, he apparently eats extra while training to keep his weight from going down.
by who me on Nov 19, 2008 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s like Michael Phelps syndrome.
Brock uses a ridiculous amount of energy while training. On his All-Access special, he mentioned he loses 5-8 pounds of liquid from training which is absolutely ridiculous. It’s not hard to imagine that he burns through a ton of calories as well.
by bigweeze on Nov 19, 2008 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I touched on it briefly in the SHW post, I think.
Truth is it’s impossible for most human beings to actually do what Brock does with muscle mass. He’s got an extraordinary frame, highlighted by his ridiculous 81" reach and obviously Redwood-esque trunk. The amount of food he must eat, specifically those damned protein drinks…yuck.
Dude is seriously committed to keeping himself in the perfect shape for fighting. That shouldn’t be ignored, when considering his work ethic and dedication to the fight game.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 19, 2008 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do recall you mentioning that, yes. I’ve been there too, man. I’ve trained my ass off to get up (at 6’2") to 215 lbs (at my highest) and it’s labor intensive to try to keep your muscle mass and cardio up the higher you climb. Ultimately, it proved to be too much, coupled with the fact that in the last two years, I’ve changed my philosophy on training and at what size I’d best utilize my talents; so now I don’t work on my mass at all. I walk around at anywhere between 180-185, and can comfortably cut to 170.
It’s not easy to keep the weight on that he does in that shape, which does not begin to mention how he apparently can’t keep that weight on. Maybe it’s as hard for him as the rest of us to keep on bulk muscle mass without giving up mobility/dexterity/cardio (particularly now that he’s training his core and working on his cardio constantly as opposed to lifting for mass, like he was as a pro wrestler— I’ve touched on that in another thread, as well).
by Blackout612 on Nov 19, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Mir is 255lbs doesn’t mean that he’s a out of shape 255lbs, these guys all work and train hard or they wouldn’t be able to do this at all. A lot of guys work hard to put on mass and they are just a healthy as guys who work to keep it off.
by who me on Nov 19, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he's certainly in better shape today..
..than he was 18-24 months ago. He was pretty sloppy for a while there and his cardio was in the shit..
by Blackout612 on Nov 19, 2008 1:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes let’s take the thinnest (figuratively) division in the sport and make the talent pool even smaller, strictly on the basis that they’ll have more incentive to not be so fat. Brilliant.
Also if you think Vera could fight at 185 you’re delusional. The man is a scarecrow at 205.
by George Lucas on Nov 19, 2008 2:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just like your last post you seem beyond content, almost excited, just making things up without actually doing any research or having any background in what you’re talking about.
If you can provide any sort of facts for the following I’ll stand corrected.
- That Brock walks around at 295.
- Heavyweights who don’t cut are “fat asses”, undisciplined and out of shape. (Really the undisciplined accusation is the most insulting on multiple levels. 1. You have no idea what it’s like to train yet feel completely justified degrading others who do. 2. You expect people who read this to be ignorant enough believe that “less than five” heavyweights are disciplined.)
- “all the really good fighters work hard and make the cut to 205”
- “many heavy weights are much heavier than is ideal for them as fighters.” (please explain where you got your education in physiology, strength and conditioning or any related field)
by Simco on Nov 19, 2008 3:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
'A Weight Class Without Discipline'
I don’t hate the guy, and I’ve had some good discussions with him, but where does he get off saying shit like that?
by subo on Nov 19, 2008 8:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really not sure if you missed the point or are trying to be argumentative...
Usually slight hyperbole & generalization is appreciated when it points to something that is utterly apparent. I guess this post has just struck some kind of nerve.
- It is really irrelevant whether or not Brock ever gets to 295
- cutting implies trying to make weight, so no… not every heavy weight is a fat ass for not cutting, and I can think of only one who has to cut — at the same time, many Heavyweights don’t even have to get into shape
- of course all the good fighters don’t cut to LHW, but a substantial number do
- and your last point is so argumentative, I’m really not sure what your problem is — are you blind? Do you watch UFC via third person description? Get a grip!
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 19, 2008 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my expectations for people to know what they’re talking about when they speak can be construed as argumentative sometimes. It’s a terrible habit I have of setting standards for people when they can’t do it for themselves.
by Simco on Nov 19, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough...
I guess you just missed the point. Everything I’ve said requires only a pair of eyes, and a critical mind. A degree in dietary management is superfluous.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 19, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that easy for huge guys to get in that kind of shape. Not everyone can just get cut. And a slight amount of fat isn’t necessarily a death sentence. Fedor has tons of pudge and he’s still a great fighter. What matters is how functionally strong you are. If there is a problem with fighters’ conditioning, they will figure it out for themselves after a couple of losses.
What makes you so sure fighters would cut weight to get into this HW division instead of staying at Super HW? Are there 10 fighters more dangerous than Brock Lesnar being held out of the UFC because of weight restrictions?
If Randy (who fails to succeed at 205) decides not to cut to fight in a thinner weightclass with heavier fighters, it’s entirely possible that many of the decently sized heavyweights would choose to not cut and fight heavier fighters at SHW.
by bigweeze on Nov 19, 2008 1:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
good point..
If 265+ fighters ever make their way to MMA I think that the 230-260 fighters would want to cut weight (of course not all of them). Also, I think it is advantagous in many regards, to at least have a choice.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
by mma_dude on Nov 19, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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