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Please End the "Randy Couture Has Trouble Fighting 'Big Guys'" Myth

The notion that Randy Couture "has troubling fighting 'big guys'" is nonsense at this point and should be dismissed by anyone who promotes this falsehood. To argue that Couture has unique difficulty fighting larger opposition more so than other fighters in similar circumstances has no evidentiary backing. The truth is that the situation is too complex to be neatly summarized or packaged in such a glib generalization.

First, what defines "big" in this case? Men larger than him? Men larger than him by a significant margin? If so, what's the margin? What people are driving at when they say "big" in this instance is that the weight disparity between Couture and whomever he is fighting is significant. Rather than two fighters meeting at the same weight at the weigh-in and then blowing up at marginally different levels, Couture has often conceded 20 or more pounds to opposition. But aside from a very, very small subset of elite fighters, who doesn't have trouble with men significantly larger than themselves? That's a rule of thumb that applies to virtually everyone in the fight game, not simply Randy Couture. In fact, that's the entire reason for having weight classes in the first place: disparities in weight unfavorably stack the deck for the heavier fighter. The heavyweight class offers the most room to skirt around that concern, so Couture has fought and lost to fighters significantly larger than himself. But that doesn't equate to Randy having the unique problem of handling size disparity, either in light of his recent record or why he's different in that regard from other fighters.

Second, Couture's return to heavyweight saw him dismantle two very large opponents with different sizes and strengths. Sylvia was ostensibly the better striker of the two while Gonzaga the better submission expert. In both cases, Couture was able to work around their size to implement his gameplan. That means since 2002 Couture is 2 - 2 against larger opposition in the heavyweight division and has wins over two different kinds of larger men. If the theory is that Couture has trouble against "big guys", shouldn't that theory hold up across a range of styles and body types? And disregarding the problem that Couture won both of those fights, he didn't even struggle in any sort of similar way to what caused his losses to Barnett and Rodriguez. So what is the common theme here? There was nothing in the Sylvia and Gonzaga fights that can be retraced to the Barnett, Rodriguez losses that demonstrates Randy having the unique problem of handling size disparities.

Admittedly, when this bromide was issued Couture had lost to Inoue, Overeem, Rodriguez and Barnett.  But Couture would undoubtedly smash Overeem, Rodriguez, and Inoue now. Barnett would still prove a very difficult test, but the notion that Couture has difficulty with physically larger opponents weakens further when we are forced to place caveats on those heavyweight characteristics. Does he lose to larger men or larger men who can bang? Does he lose to larger men or just larger men who are good ground technicians? The theory is beginning to be whittled down into non-existence when those considerations are included.

This isn't to suggest anything about the outcome of the fight. Rather, I would ask that we stop promoting the idea that fighting larger opposition is something uniquely difficult for Couture. The truth is that fighting larger opposition is uniquely difficult for anyone, so the theory is already dubious. When we further include Couture's success in his last two fights, the theory ceases to be even remotely meaningful. There is nothing in Couture's current skill set or modern record that suggests he uniquely has difficulty fighting larger opposition over any other fighter in a similar circumstance.

It's possible that Lesnar's size will be a deciding factor in this bout. However, the rule of Fighter A having an advantage of 50lbs lighter Fighter B applies in virtually every circumstance. It won't always be the case that the heavier fighter's size makes the difference (see Fedor vs. Hong Man Choi, a true example of diminishing returns), but in the overwhelming majority of cases the heavier fighter enters the bout with a significant edge. That Couture has come up short against much larger opposition while also dominating them makes the picture inconclusive at best.

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“The truth is that fighting larger opposition is uniquely difficult for anyone”

That “uniquely” doesn’t make much sense.

by Richard Wade on Nov 14, 2008 2:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

To me, the issue is that Couture in general uses his wrestling to offset his size disadvantage when fighting larger men. Thus when he is fighting a larger guy like Lesnar with a comparable wrestling ability, he cannot use that to counteract the size difference.

by iiowyn on Nov 14, 2008 2:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, maybe not. Either way, though, that doesn’t support the theory that Couture has trouble with larger opposition. Either the theory needs to be sharpened and changed or its meaningless.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was my attempt at narrowing down the theory. Eventually it is going to be “Randy Couture has trouble with larger opponents who can negate his ability to negate the size disadvantage”.

So in the end, broad generalizations are just silly.

by iiowyn on Nov 14, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the sharpening - add 'that can wrestle' to 'big guys'

That solves all of your criteria for accuracy, yes?

by subo on Nov 14, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No. Define “that can wrestle”. Barnett and Rodriguez can wrestle somewhat. In truth, Lesnar is the only high level wrestler who is also a big man that Couture will have faced. If he loses (and even then it depends how he loses), does that make your suggestion accurate? I don’t think so. Generally we need some sort of body of work to judge. We know Gurgel abandons a gameplan and trades in the middle of the ring because he’s done so consistently, time after time. If Couture were to lose to big men who could negate his wrestling several times, them maybe so. Until then, though, I don’t know if that’s true.

Also keep in mind Couture smashed Randleman and he can wrestle his ass off.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Randleman is a natural 205’er and a juicer.

by cyph on Nov 14, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s irrelevant. Couture is better suited for the weight class. They fought at heavyweight and Randleman is a wrestler. He didn’t have a significant size advantage over Couture, but the notion that big wrestler can negate Randy is simply too tidy to be accurate.

Gonzaga can also wrestle somewhat and Couture steamrolled him.

If we’re going to have a theory about how Couture loses to much larger heavyweights, we have a responsibility to get the theory right and accurate. As it stands, its not helpful.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly the sample sizes and constant training between fights makes me very leery of making any generalization.

by iiowyn on Nov 14, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

  1. I’m pretty sure he knows that Brock is a good wrestler. It’s gotten around.
  2. Wrestling isn’t the only tool in Randy’s belt.
  3. BJJ was created specifically to allow little guys like Helio and Carlos Gracie to take on much larger opponents
  4. Randy’s BJJ isn’t the greatest in the world, but it’s a lot better than Brock’s.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Nov 14, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you make good points and I agree with most of them. I would counter-argue, though, that some fighters develop specific skills that allow them to better counter larger fighters either standing or on the ground. We know Couture can hold his own on the feet against a larger fighter (your Sylvia point), but he hasn’t shown the high-level BJJ from his back to get sweeps or subs against a larger ground fighter who can put him down. That’s not just a factor of size, it’s a factor of skill sets. Personally, I’d love to see Randy take down Lesnar with a triangle choke, but I wouldn’t bet money on it. With Nog, I don’t think Lesnar’s size advantage is as much of an advantage, because even if he’s thrown down and held down by the size and wrestling of Lesnar, he still has options.

All of which is not to say that I disagree with anything you wrote. It’s just a question of whether or not Randy has the absolute best skill set to deal with a larger fighter who also has the ability to take the top position on the mat.

by AJB on Nov 14, 2008 2:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think if people actually watched Ricco vs. Randy they’d be surprised. It was pretty much dead even going into round 5

by smoogy on Nov 14, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I, for one, never said 'big guys'

I specified: ‘big guys that are awesome at wrestling.’

That leaves two people, Luke: Barnett and Rodriguez.

Couture’s 0-2 agains then, and Barnett might give him trouble again today (roid free).

by subo on Nov 14, 2008 2:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

This post wasn’t directed at you specifically.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm. I thought they all were.

by subo on Nov 14, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How could they be? The voices talk to me.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Nov 14, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meh

This seems like a strawman to me. If you look at his four fights against bigger opponents, he’s lost the two where he was put on his back (Barnett and Rodriguez) and won the two when he dictated the position (Sylvia and Gonzaga).

He’s been put on his back by five opponents. Against the guys the same size (Ortiz, Van Arsdale) he was able to get to his feet. Against the two that were larger (again, Barnett and Rodriguez), he could not. Randleman is the X-Factor, though it’s hard to get up when your opponent has no strategy but to hold you down.

I will take one issue here: Can we please stop counting his matches against Overeem, Inoue, et al, as if they were comparable. RINGS had no ground striking. At the time, Randy had no submissions and no stand-up. How exactly was he going to win those fights? What relevance does that have to modern MMA?

by sl0wb0t on Nov 14, 2008 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That is a point that is ignored too often, how the rules of a fight affect the fighter’s ability to win in past fights.

by iiowyn on Nov 14, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m content with leaving Overeem and Inoue out, but you’re argument is a slippery slope. You want to take the Barnett and Rodriguez losses from 6 years ago as something indicative of modern ability. I’m not so sure that’s fair given a) how much we know about how abilities can drift or grow in that time in MMA, b) how much Rodriguez has declined and c) that the two biggest men Couture has recently fought have been soundly defeated.

I agree Overeem and Inoue aren’t that relevant, but Barnett and Rodriguez need to be looked at with more a discerning eye as well.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why can’t we just all agree that the Randy-Brock matchup is unprecidented, then? I suppose that’s what Dana is banking on with his one million PPV prediction.

by AJB on Nov 14, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m fine with that.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll grant that abilities change over time. Normally, you’d say that they deteriorate with age, but Randy seems to be the exception. Still, I don’t see how b) Rodriguez’s abilities are relevant or c) that he beat two guys who couldn’t put him on his back. If you’re looking for analogues to Lesnar in Randy’s history, I still think Barnett and Rodriguez are your two closes matches. To discount “the bigger man” theory as it relates to the Lesnar fight, you’d have to assert that Randy can do something now that he couldn’t do six years ago. And mind you, it’s something physical, not mental or strategic. That issue makes this a much more persuasive argument to my mind.

by sl0wb0t on Nov 14, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s exactly what I’m asserting: he has a skill set now that he didn’t have 6 years ago. Aside from reports inside his camp in this fight and the two previous fights that he was able to defend the TD from large opponents and get back to his feet (Shane Carwin, Eric Pele, Frank Mir, Dan Christison, and plenty others), we have him dominating Sylvia and Gonzaga with skills in every department he never had before including the stand-up (where he did significant damage). The truth is everything in his arsenal has improved from wrestling for MMA to BJJ to boxing. All of it is better. He’s a different fighter and I bring up Rodriguez as an illustration of how abilities can rapidly change over time. His have done the inverse of Couture’s, so pointing at the loss as an example of how Couture handles that particular sort of pressure is pointing at a very different Rodriguez and very different Couture. It’s analogous, I suppose, but just barely.

The truth is this Couture is new and improved. Trying to extrapolate or extend an old theory into a new reality is not very helpful. Until Couture demonstrates a weakness in his fight with Brock that he had in either of the fights with Barnett or Rodriguez, the theory is guessing at best.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Given the evidence you present, I’m comfortable accepting the assertion that Couture may be able to do against Lesnar what he failed to do against Barnett and Rodriguez. That’s what makes this matchup so intriguing. But I wouldn’t call the theory a guess. Small sample size maybe, but the evidence is certainly less anecdotal than any claims from training partners to the contrary.

by sl0wb0t on Nov 14, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you talked yourself into a prediction yet.

We’re all waiting.

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Nov 14, 2008 3:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Waiting to see the weigh-ins before any final prediction.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 14, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

EXACTLY

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Nov 14, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i will stop bringing up the size difference if everyone stops pretending that Brock wont have as much stamina as Randy. You’re smokin some bad shit if you think Brock "cant hang with Randy in rounds 4 and 5. But rounds 4 and 5 arent gonna matter cause Lesnar is going to knock him out with a head kIck in the first round. You heard it here first, sorry if i ruined anybodies weekend!

by SteveXtreme on Nov 14, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The real question isn’t straight cardio. We don’t know what happens to Lesnar’s gas tank when he gets punched in the face repeatedly. When guys panic they tend to have energy crashes, guys in great shape can gas on nerves. I think this is actually what happened with Shogun, the fight wasn’t going his way, and a combination of nerves and panic gassed him.

by Michael Rome on Nov 14, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re right – to an extent, but Chestnar looked pretty un-winded at the end of round 3 vs. Herring, so he may have better cardio than you’re giving him credit for.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Nov 14, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True, but between a bigger guy and a smaller, guess which one will waste more energy in a wrestling match?

by cyph on Nov 14, 2008 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How about this? Randy loses 1/3 of all his fights, and he is on a 2 fight streak. Statistically, he is due.

by Heenan on Nov 14, 2008 3:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

True

It’s the most deceptive 16-8 record ever, especially when put next to Coleman’s – almost every fight in Randy’s career has been challenging for or defending a title.

by subo on Nov 14, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn’t that the reason Randy himself gave for his move to LHW? If Randy said the new breed of HW was just too big, how can any of us say otherwise? That being said the opponents he lost to were alot more experienced than Brock. However I think Brock’s destruction of Herring is getting a little looked over. 2 out of 3 fights where Herring fought Big Nog it went to decision. So Herring has good or at least decent defense on the ground. So to say Brock’s inability to finish Herring even from the mount shows his inexperience, to me is saying a little too much. I can’t lie, I’m rooting for Brock. First he has alot more fights ahead of him. Second Randy’s little, amount to nothing, temper tantrum just has soured me on him. Then I think if Randy takes a beating, he’ll either retire AGAIN or move back down to LHW.

by Tommy7 on Nov 14, 2008 4:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Little news I just heard

Jay Glazer was just on the local radio station talking MMA and the Couture/Lesnar fight. He was with Randy yesterday and said Randy was weighing in at about 222lbs.

Complete Jay Glazer interview

He talks about the size disparity between Lesnar and Couture towards the middle of the interview. I was shocked to hear that Randy was weighing at 222lbs just yesterday. Hopefully he’s just pulling this number out of his ass. But he is close to Couture and he did probably see Randy checking his weight.

Glazer’s direct quote:

Randy weighed 222lbs yesterday before practice. He probably weighed 218lbs after.

by Discman2 on Nov 14, 2008 5:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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