Brock Lesnar
by Luke Thomas on Nov 13, 2008 1:29 PM EST
in News
101 comments
That's who Stephen Quadros believes will defeat Randy Couture this Saturday night at UFC 91. Notable quote:
Mir is known as one of the best submission men in MMA at his weight. Yet Brock was hammering Frank to pieces until an errant blow to the back of Mir’s head caused the referee to step in and restart the fight. Mir capitalized but securing the fight winning kneebar.
While Randy hasn’t proven to be a Mir on the ground (Couture only has two submission in 24 fights, one of them 11 years ago), Lesnar is a completely different animal than Sylvia - he’s FAST, hungry and is a better wrestler than Randy is.
If Lesnar can fight with the abandon that he unleashed in his fight with Frank Mir, combined with the ‘pick your shots’ patience he learned on the job while fighting Heath Herring, he should win this by going by the numbers already established by Ricco Rodriguez and Josh Barnett, both of who won against Couture by TKO - take Randy down, get top position and drill him. But the longer the fight goes however, the harder it will be for Lesnar to do what he does best, put his opponent on his back. Couture is definitely going to want to take this fight into the deep waters of the fourth and fifth rounds. There he will be able to test the chin, cardio and heart of the former pro-wrestler.
It’s hard for me to pick against Randy because he’s bucked the odds so many times in the past. But...I pick Brock Lesnar to win by ground and pound/ref stoppage, most likely in the second round.
This fight has so many variables and such little information. I'm still officially undecided.
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I want Randy to win so bad that I put money on him against a friend of mine who has the same argument as Quadros. The entire deck is stacked against Randy. But he’s been there before. Chuck should have destroyed him in their first fight. Tito was supposed to steamroll him. Vitor was the phenom and Randy was the guy too old to be fighting. Tim was simply too long and too good a striker, Gonzaga just KOed Cro Cop. Granted, none of those men possess the pure physical tools had by Lesnar but Couture is a game planner.
If Heath Herring can avoid getting mounted and pounded out for 15 minutes, I think Randy should be able to do the same. That won’t get him the W but the longer the fight goes, the more Randy’s experience will put him in situations Brock has only simulated.
Looking at all the different elements of this fight, Brock Lesnar should win. Looking at history, Randy Couture wins decisively in situations where he should lose. Who actually walks out with the belt Saturday is like shooting fish in a pond, but I’m going with Randy.
I can’t wait for this fight.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 11:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ummmmm
I was with you until your shooting fish in a pond analogy. Shooting fish in a pond is an analogy for something that is easy. How about….a shot in the dark?
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"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn’t that be shooting fish in a barrel?
by mythbuster on Nov 13, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I was thinking that but could not bring myself to post it
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hahah
yeh – ‘a shot in the dark’ would be more….apt.
shooting fish in a pond might be a bit difficult I guess – but I’ve never heard that one before.
by rainmaker6 on Nov 14, 2008 4:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I desperately want Randy to win, and to do so in an embarrassingly easy way.
But heres a little comparison thing.
For Randy:
Experience
Against Randy:
Age
50+ pounds
Ring rust
Much larger opponent with the same skillset
Out of the cage distractions (Affliction)
Either I’m missing something, or this is a squash. If Randy survives to a decision, it has more to do with Brocks inability to finish than with Randy’s gameplan.
by mythbuster on Nov 13, 2008 12:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Lesnar can lose here, as long as he doesn't look Paulo-like
He’s either about to beat or lose to the greatest HW in MMA history.
Even the worst case scenario ain’t that bad for Brock. For Dana, sure, but not Brock. Dude is laden with future talent even if he loses.
by subo on Nov 13, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very correct!
Dana will profit majorly no matter who wins this fight. Randy has what a 4 fight deal left including this one? His pay per view draw will be ridiculous if Couture wins & if Lesnar wins he gets to promote his young phenom who just defeated the legendary Randy “The Natural” Couture.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Sad but true, he’s in a no lose situation. The only way I can see it going badly for him is if Randy easily does away with him – gives him a Petruzelli knuckle or something. This is what I hope for.
by mythbuster on Nov 13, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An early crumple-shot
really is the only way Lesnar loses coming out of this fight. The funny part of this fight, to me, is that both fighters stand to gain regardless of outcome. Should be a lot of fun..there’s gonna be more drama in this fight than most cards combined.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
10-4 on that,
let’s all just hope to get a couple of rounds of good fighting or at least a dominant performance by either guy. Anything but a flash KO & I will be happy, unless one of them ends up flying out of the round from an uppercut or something!
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, a dominant performance by either fighter
is what most of us are looking forward to. I really don’t think this will be close either way, and I’m picking Brock to win it via TKO in the 2nd. But I really can see this ending in any number of ways, including with blackened thighs and stand-up KO’s.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
toss up
i cant make up my mind either…would anyone be surprised if either of them won in any number of ways?? what are the Least likely ways one of them will win???
Lesnar by sub
Couture by knockout
by DUGASWARRIOR on Nov 13, 2008 12:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lesnar by sub
Couture by knockout
Ok, I know this is crazy, but hear me out.
Randy has never ever knocked someone out. Obviously he came close with Timmeh, but still no dice. He’s got those subs and many are suggesting he go that route Sounds plausible in the fourth round or so. But here’s the crazy part:
Brock subs Randy.
I know, I know, its ludicrous, but really think about. Besides it not being likely that Brock would go for it or has trainers who go for it, its also unlikely that he has the JJ to handle a guy like Randy who was able to defend against Jacare for an entire match, right?
Here’s the thing, how can anyone stop Brock from grabbing and extending a limb? This isn’t someone smaller than you trying to submit you, this is Brock’s entire body working against a limb. Leglocks could probably be stopped early-on, but what’s to stop Brock from grabbing an arm and awkwardly going for an armbar? Even if you grab your arm or do the Nog arm-cross that’s still Randy’s one little arm versus Brock’s entire body. Brutal. Even without a lot of skill Brock’s grip is likely insane, and regular leverage might not work to pull your arm free, either. the most you have to work with in most jits is your own body weight, but I have a feeling Brock can just pick Randy up with little loss of energy.
To me, that’s the real danger for Randy. Brock explodes on him with a takedown and goes for an arm/shoulder lock. I guess Randy would have to sprawl-and-brawl to stop it from happening.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
uhhh
Randy has 7 TKO wins.
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"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uhhhh
Not knockouts. He hit people while he controlled the position so well that they could neither get free or do anything to stop the blows. They were not I repeat not rendered unconscious. The former is Randy’s bread and butter; everyone’s dream is to see him do it to Brock, like he’s done to so many before. But its not the combination speed|power and technique that’ll drop a cat.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually
its not everyones dream to see him do it to Brock. A win by Randy does nothing for the HW division. It needs new blood and life.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Lesnar doesn’t lock down the angles, anything is escapable; BJJ is designed to allow the use of leverage, torque, etc. in order to counter-act strength and size. One of my trainers is 60lbs. lighter than me, and I can’t submit her because she just rolls or twists slightly to keep enough space/keep safe positioning. Brock may be able to force an arm extension, but will he be able to keep his weight low enough to prevent Randy rolling out or sweeping him? Will he maintain wrist control long enough to prevent Randy from turning his arm and then stacking? Brock’s strength may be an advantage, but his sheer size is just as likely to be a disadvantage.
by AJB on Nov 13, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really do not believe
even discussing what Lesnar needs to do to submit Randy is worthwhile. Neither one of these guys are BJJ players & the only way this comes into play is if Randy catches Brock.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Worthwhile?
Ha ha, you’re probably right, but most blogging comments on upcoming events are conjecture and theoretical pontification. Nothing’s worthwhile except for their training and performance on the 15th.
I was just adding the scariest thought in my mind when thinking of how this fight could go. And its the last thing anyone would see coming short of Brock throwing a hadoken. No one mentioned it, so I thought I throw it out there.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are right,
we are all doing the same thing. It is just curious to hear people projecting that Lesnar may sub Randy. Lesnar by Masterlock in 2
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its the last thing Randy would expect
And the hardest to deal with after that mistake. Cock’d even get some serious fan cred for it in addition to beating one of the greatest ever. But that’s also prolly why he’d never do it. He’d have to look past his own desire to hit and smash to prove power wins long enough to see the future.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I’m sure you’d armbar me in seconds, you are unlikely to posses the freakish, highly functional strength and the championship top game that Chestnar has. If Randy can’t handle it for even a second while sub is going through Cock’s mind it could be over.
And, since its an excellent point you mention, wrist control for Chestnar involves completely grabbing your forearm with those farm boy mitts. But it is unknown whether he has the kind of hand and forearm control (of himself) to maintain it. Interesting.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t see Randy winning this fight. Yes I understand that hes shocked the world many times as the underdog but in those other fights he also had other strategic advantages beside the fact that “hes Randy Couture”.
I’m gonna have to go with the 31 year old athletic freak that has been training non-stop for a year and a half over the 45 year old cardio/heart freak who hasn’t had a fight in that same amount of time.
by Day Man on Nov 13, 2008 12:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I gotta agree
With Quadros, Lesnar by g&p stoppage in the 2nd rd. First round will be a feeling out round. 2nd round Brock will kick it up a notch.
by xFenixKnightx on Nov 13, 2008 12:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’d actually be really impressed if Brock has a feeling out round. I’d be surprised if he had a feeling out 10 seconds.
by Day Man on Nov 13, 2008 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I got to agree with Day Man. There will be no feeling out process. The fight will go as all Brocks fights have gone. Bullrush, takedown, hit-hit-hit-hit.
by mythbuster on Nov 13, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm actually guessing there
will be a feeling out process.
Lesnar rushed Mir because it was his grand entrance, and he was obviously hyped out of his damned mind for that fight.
He didn’t rush Herring (unless you count the flying knee), he stood there and punched him into a cartwheel before trying to finish him.
Watch some of Lesnar’s college wrestling matches on YouTube and you’ll see a guy who understands the value of picking his spots on the feet. His NCAA finals match, in particular, is a good example of a guy who has established a lead and wants nothing more than to simply ride it out. This guy isn’t an 80 IQ gorilla, despite what many here think of him.
I’m guessing there’ll be about a minute and a half or two minute feeling out process, after which someone will connect with a decent shot, and the real gameplans will be revealed.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I love Randy...
there is no way that I could put money on him in this fight. Sure, we have not seen anyone test Lesnar’s chin but Randy is not exactly a world beater on the feet either. Randy is way smaller than Lesnar & considerably smaller than Herring so I would be very surprised if he was able to stay off his back for long. Barring Randy landing a sub, I cannot see him winning this fight.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 12:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and his only submission in this century was in 2005 against Mike Van Arsdale (errrr?), which was between his two losses to Liddel.
by mythbuster on Nov 13, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pinned up against the cage, we can not discount Randy’s dirty boxing. If he is able to get Lesnar onto his back, we will see Randy in a spot where he is very capable of finishing the fight against a guy in Brock who has never been put on his back inside the octagon.
What I’m saying is Randy has multiple tools to not only win, but to finish this fight. Saying there’s no chance of that happening means you just haven’t been paying attention.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really
believe that Lesnar will allow him to pin him up against the cage? And even if this somehow happens, since when is Randy considered a world class striker. I love Randy, but that is not his strength. I am not saying Randy has no chance, but his chances definitely shrink given Lesnar is a younger, faster, bigger & stronger version of himself. I am just offering my opinion & of course there is always a chance in MMA for anything to happen. But prognosticating about something like that happening when that is not what Randy does seems foolish & not objective.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When we talk about “world class strikers” in this sport, usually people are referring to guys like Anderson Silva or Mirko Cro Cop who have a kickboxing pedigree prior to MMA. What we need to be looking at is striking for MMA. Randy Couture doesn’t necessarily have knockout power but his TKO of Gonzaga alone while his arm was broken showed his MMA striking is enough to get the job done. And, yes, I do think at some point they will be tied up in the clinch and Randy will be able to land a few shots. Lesnar should theoretically win this fight, but the tools Randy has in his box are for more numerous than Brock’s. Brock’s tools are fewer but they do more damage. Let’s see what happens.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree completely,
but my point was that is not what you really think of as Randy’s strengths. He uses them, effectively, but that is not truly how he wins most of his fights. Randy has way more tools, that is true, but being able to implement them is sometimes a different story.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson Silva did not enter the sport with a pedigree in Thai boxing or kick boxing. Not even close.
by Luke Thomas on Nov 13, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no kidding
Easy Luke. Dont let facts get in the way of a good opinion.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I should have worded that a little differently. What I meant was that while he might not have been a pro-muay thai fighter before his start in MMA, Anderson Silva’s proficiency and base in muay thai could be considered somewhat analogous to how guys like Randy and Brock use their wrestling.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to bet against Randy, but it hard to see how he wins this.
Of course I thought the same thing with the Gonzaga fight.
I’m also interested to see Lesnar develop in the sport.
In the end, no matter who wins, I hope it goes to the later rounds and is an epic fight so that both figher’s careers are boosted by the event.
by Razreshat on Nov 13, 2008 12:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I don't see how Randy can win.
However, I will still pick Randy to win. He may get squashed Saturday, but I refuse to count Randy out. I think he’ll surprise people.
by pud333 on Nov 13, 2008 12:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
lol
that was a funny post…read your title and the first line again outloud.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy will get it done. He’s way too smart and seasoned for Brock at this point. 24 fights to brock’s 3 so far. Brock has not faced true top flight competition yet. This will be his 1st REAL test. Yes, Mir is good competition but Randy is a legend.
Randy by decision. I have not seen anything from Brock that would indicate he can finish a fight against a top level guy. Until he does, I will take a guy like Randy.
by lbk on Nov 13, 2008 12:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good points
This will be a test for Lesnar.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Food for thought. For the longest time the hotly debated question was, “Who’s the best HW on the planet: Randy or Fedor?”
After seeing what kind of torment and uncertainty people are going through to pick Lesnar/Randy, the question I pose is – “Does this make the former argument a little easier to decide?”
While style DO make fights, there’s no question in my mind Fedor would be a HEAVY favourite against Brock and people would likely be calling it a “freakshow NYE fight” if it happened in Japan.
by Frank_Castle on Nov 13, 2008 12:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Looks like the overwhelming majority of the BE community can’t see Randy winning this fight. I want it clear right now that I am not in that majority.
I’m not saying it’s stupid to pick Brock; this is a 50/50 fight. But haven’t we learned anything from the past? Do NOT bet against Randy Couture.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 12:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
See you here on Sat night :)
Coutures goin down! lol
by xFenixKnightx on Nov 13, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I just can’t pick against Randy here. He’s gonna find a way… he’s just gotta…
by Chris Nelson on Nov 13, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I think people might be hedging their bets. Everyone knows Brock could win, and if Randy wins everyone gets to say “He beat the odds again!”
Personally, I think Randy wins. I only think Cock wins is by early barrage like he did to Mir, or submission. The latter being his best chance. Randy still wins though.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So,
you think “Cock’s” best chance to beat Randy Couture is to submit him? Something he has never even attempted in an MMA fight? And there is no way that the 31 year old “Cock” would be able to withstand Randy for 5 rounds? I love Randy but there is no way what you are saying has any merit to it,
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No way?
And there is no way that the 31 year old "Cock" would be able to withstand Randy for 5 rounds?
I don’t think there’s no way – I’ve already stated two. But I might not quite understand your wording there.
by asa on Nov 13, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was quoting someone's earlier post,
that is why I put the question mark. I believe Lesnar will win no matter how long the fight goes. I actually believe it favors Lesnar the longer it goes. If Randy is going to win, it is going to be an early sub before they are both covered in sweat, or catching him while he still has some fire in his hands
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care how old and frail Couture is compared to what he used to be. There is no way that he is going to be overwhelmed by aggression from a novice fighter.
The longer the fight goes, the more Lesnar’s physical advantages will disappear. I think Couture will get the win. Maybe it takes him a while, maybe not. I just can’t see Lesnar taking him.
by penxv on Nov 13, 2008 1:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Of course Randy
is a warrior & one of my all-time top fighters, but that is not the issue here. As much as I love him, there is only so far we can push the seasoned/experienced angle. There comes a time in every great fighter or even athlete where even though you are more than capable of beating someone on a given day, you are unable to because they are younger, faster, bigger, stronger & simply more athletic than you currently are. Let me be clear, I would love for Randy to win & continue on this run & hopefully get a match with Fedor just to see it. But there are only so many options for Randy to win here & if you do not think he (master gameplanner) knows that you are crazy. He is training to fight off of his back for long periods of time with bigger guys than he is so I am sure he is working BJJ very hard.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Couture by decision! I just can’t pick against the old man!
by DJ Soma on Nov 13, 2008 1:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to say Couture beats Brock at his own game.
by Popetastic on Nov 13, 2008 2:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
OK....
Sure, Couture has the experience nod and Lesnar has never faced anyone like Couture. Now, has Couture ever faced anyone like Lesnar? Of course not. He may not be seasoned, but this guy will go down as a great fighter one day.
I am from Everett and it kills me to do this, but I pick Lesnar by TKO.
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"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 13, 2008 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lesnar couldn't TKO herring. What makes you think he will TKO Randy??
I mean seriously, he couldn’t pound Heath out and his striking is so bad from what I have seen. I just don’t see him controlling Randy like he did Heath..
by lbk on Nov 13, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You do not see him controlling the smaller, older figher the same way he did Herring? Sorry, but I cannot make that leap.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Herring struggled w/ O’Brien the same way though. He’s not nearly as hard to get down as Couture will be.
Lesnar is very inexperienced and defending GnP isn’t really that hard. Simply getting on top doesn’t mean that he will be able to score damage. + acquiring the takedown is the most energy expending action in a fight, particularly against a good wrestler. I don’t see Brock being able to handle a 5 rounder.
by penxv on Nov 13, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t Herring injured going into the fight with O’Brien? I swear I heard that somewhere.
by Richard Wade on Nov 13, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do not know
the exact difference between Herring & Randy but I would think it is considerable. That being said, thinking that Lesnar will be unable to hold down a man a lot smaller than the one he just held down for 15 minutes seems a little crazy. Randy should be harder both to take & keep down, but harder does not seem like a fair comparison when Lesnar did it with ease against a guy who is supposedly notorious for being hard to keep down.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brock will have a tougher time holding Randy down than Herring down. Randy is, what, 20 or 30 pounds lighter than Herring? When you’re a guy that big, a size difference of 30 pounds is not as much as it would be for your normal man – maybe equivalent to a difference of 10 or 15 pounds. What I’m saying is the size difference between Randy and Herring isn’t the key factor here – it’s Randy’ overall wrestling ability. Randy’s wrestling is world-class and to even compare Herring and Randy in that regard doesn’t make sense. Brock’s strength, explosiveness, and wrestling prowess could conceivably cause him to hold Randy down at ease but to say he’ll be able to do it to Randy because he did it to Herring doesn’t make sense.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not
comparing Herring & randy’s wrestling at all. My point is that everyone talked about how hard it was to hold Herring down & he was on his ass the entire fight. I am no expert, but I do not see how Lesnar will not be able to impose his will for the most part in this fight. I am not discounting Randy’s great wrestling, but I will not discount Cock’s either when he has the same wrestling & is younger, stronger, faster & just plain old more athletic.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you that it is within the realm of possibility for Brock to be able to impose his will however he sees fits based on his similar wrestling backgrounds and his physical abilities.
But, when you say “My point is that everyone talked about how hard it was to hold Herring down & he was on his ass the entire fight,” you are essentially comparing Randy and Herring. You’re straight up saying, “Well, look what he did to Herring. If he did it to Herring he could do it to Randy.” Yes, he may be able to do that to Randy (I doubt it) but it won’t have anything to do with the fact that he did it to Herring.
Randy and Heath Herring have two entirely different styles. Herring has a tough as nails, brawling style that makes him hard to finish but at the same time he doesn’t seem to do well against quality wrestlers. Randy Couture has Olympic level wrestling despite the size difference. Whether Brock controls him or not isn’t the issue; your comparison is like apples to oranges.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, Randy’s significant experience in wrestling for MMA is a factor to be looked at. Wrestling in MMA isn’t the same as a straight up amateur contest, just like BJJ for MMA isn’t the same as a staright up grappling contest and boxing in MMA isn’t the same as regular boxing. Brock has yet to face someone with the wrestling pedigree he has. Whether that becomes a factor in the fight remains to be seen but it is something to consider.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was really only
comparing their ability to get up. I see your point, but that was a lot to read & I am about to head out. I will put it this way-if Randy can stay off the bottom against Lesnar I will give him much praise & will apologize for comparing his wrestling to Herrings. If he is unable to, then my comparison would seem to have some merit.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Herring is not easy to TKO
He has been TKO’d 4 times, however twice were due to cuts and once to a knee injury. Cro Cop is the only person to TKO him due to strikes.
by iiowyn on Nov 13, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
::Sound of glass breaking::
Randy wins by DQ after Stone Cold jumps into the cage and knocks Brock out with a steel chair.
by dropkick101 on Nov 13, 2008 2:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Will Lesnar
get an F-5 bonus for a finishing move?
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOLOLOL,
Very nice!! I would pay $49.95 for that
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think there’s a lot of false comparison going on.
The response to Randy KOing Brock is “He’s never won a standing KO in a fight.” Meaningless really considering he is fighting a guy who has never been punched in the face in a fight. Brock could easily crumple from the kind of punch Randy landed on Tim. Also worth noting that Randy rocked Gonzaga with a left, and of all things people in his camp say, the most consistent is that his KO power standing is at a level it has never been at before. I think this is a very likely finish.
Next, submissions. Randy has only one submission. He’s also had to fight mainly guys that actually can defend submissions and don’t immediately tap out of panic like Brock did. He’s fighting a guy that is 2-1, and has already shown a proclivity to make dumb mistakes in both of his UFC fights. Randy’s submission game has also mainly improved in the last two years through training with Drysdale and Jacare, there is no doubt at all in my mind that he could end up submitting Brock Lesnar.
He’s 2-1. He’s never taken a punch in the face in a fight. He has never had to deal with any adversity in a fight. He’s never been cut in a fight. He’s never had a guy hitting him from the top in a fight. I can’t pick him against Randy Couture.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the submission points,
but really what exactly are you expecting to hear from Randy’s camp? That he is 45 & he has lost power? I really, really like Randy as one of my all time favorites, so do not get me wrong. I just do not anticipate this being a boxing match. Of course Randy could catch him, but that is not what he is known for. We have never “seen” him get punched in the face or on bottom, but what makes you think that Randy will ever be on top or could possibly hold him there? I am fairly certain that Lesnar on the ground is worldly different than Sylvia.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We’ve seen the better pure wrestler beat time and again in MMA. He has to watch out for way too much. If this was just a wrestling match sure, but I have no doubt Randy can throw a two punch combination with a leg kick, back Lesnar up, and then explode in for a body lock against the cage. He did it to Gonzaga all night long. Once it’s up against the cage, it’s a world Lesnar doesn’t know.
I think just watching the Herring fight…I saw Herring stuff a takedown that Brock shot from the outside. I saw Herring scramble to his feet, and I saw Brock with his back against the fence twice…against Heath Herring.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as camp goes, I’m relying on anonymous emails with people in the camp rather than public statements of bravado. Randy’s been sparring and beating up Wanderlei Silva for weeks now.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right,
so are you saying that Randy is a more dangerous striker than Herring & if he gets Lesnar in the same positions he will be able to do more damage than Herring did? I agree that anything can happen & if anyone can do it, it will be Randy.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy’s takedowns up against the fence rely on using the fence to put his opponents off balance before he sweeps the legs or trips them. None of Brock’s amateur career prepares him for a situation where he has to watch for that and for short elbows, knees, and dirty boxing. If he ends up in that situation he is going to be in deep shit.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you are right,
but I feel fairly confident that he has prepared for the fence. Just saying he more than likely will not win because he has not experienced these things that a lot of fighters have does not cut it for me. Sometimes guys come in green & are able to make it thru, sometimes they do not. We will see. I enjoyed the discussions with you though!
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest force behind Rome's point here
is that Randy is the perfect guy to expose this weakness in Lesnar’s game. If Brock really isn’t ready for a fight against the cage, then expect that to be where the fight happens. If Brock’s stand-up skills center-ring aren’t up to par, expect that to be where this fight occurs. Randy’s not Chuck or Tito, relying on one specific gameplan to win a fight. He’s the Sugar Ray Leonard of the MMA world in that he can adapt his plan to the current situation really smoothly.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is what I said,
if anyone can do it, it is Randy. I just see very limited options for this to happen. Just my opinion & Rampage not tapping out to chokes does not really change my view.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as never being cut in a fight that is something that happens for everyone at some point in their careers. To use that as a point against him seems a little foolish considering we have never seen him get hit. Some guys get drilled right out of the chute in their careers & we find out that it does not bother them at all.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that blood often induces panic. There is only one time we’ve ever seen Lesnar in any trouble at all, and he tapped immediately without even trying to escape, despite drilling that escape for weeks with great submission guys. Panic does that to rookie fighters.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a question: If Randy drills Brock like he did to Tim, and then takes his back, is there any possible doubt that Randy will lock in the choke? There’s just absolutely zero chance he’d be able to defend it like tim, he’d be tapped immediately. Lesnar needs this fight to go perfectly to win.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure,
that will probably be accurate. What happens if Lesnar drills Randy like he did Herring? Are we thinking that Randy has a better chin than Herring & will even still be inside the octagon after getting clocked like that? I agree with all of your sub points, that is the best laid plan for Randy I believe. IMO
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course,
but seeing your own blood & feeling the ligaments & tendons in one of your appendages tearing is a little bit different.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a reason most guys tap to triangles and chokes and guys like Rampage don’t. He’s not immune to the pain. He is an expert at not panicking.
by Michael Rome on Nov 13, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What exactly
does Rampage have to do with this discussion? Your first sentence really says it all-“most guys tap to triangles & chokes.” There are not many fighters who can get out of a deep choke or armbar, besides unconscious or with a damaged arm.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who's had a halfway decent choke put on them
understands the absolute panic you feel, and how long it seems to last. It takes a ridiculous amount of practice, training and deconditioning to ignore that instinct to flee, and not everyone is even capable of making that specific adaptation.
The reason Rampage is relevant to the discussion is to illustrate that even though Brock is a world-class athlete and a really great fighter (at least as a prospect, regardless of your extraneous opinions of him as a person), we don’t know if he can make all of these necessary alterations.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly,
we do not know how he will respond. That is my point. Speculating about how he will respond is just pure guesswork with no insight. All that we have is his first fight against a BJJ blackbelt.
by dnevil001 on Nov 13, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's just the wrong perspective, though.
To identify a guy like Rampage as rare in his abilities, then turn around and say that with a relative newcomer we have no idea if he’ll be able to be like that is facetious. Of course we have an idea how he will perform – he will likely not perform anywhere near as well as Rampage. It’s simple statistics. Now, do we have evidence or reason to believe that he will perform like a top-shelf guy? I suppose there are some reasonable arguments there.
But to me, you’ve got to go with proof and history first, and neither the proof or history are on Brock’s side in this regard. He’s new to the sport, has already shown that he’s quick to panic when he’s in a dangerous situation, and the ability of a guy like Rampage to wait out a panic-inducing submission is extremely rare in MMA.
So count me in the crowd that thinks Lesnar is in more trouble than the average fighter if he ends up in a dangerous or compromising situation.
And for the record, I still pick Lesnar to win. Even though doing so almost guarantees Randy a victory ;)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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