Is Randy Couture to Blame for Lack of Interest?
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 12, 2008 1:44 PM EST
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On the recent edition of E:60 Brock Lesnar had the highest rated segment in the history of the show. UFC 87 drew big numbers and trends (internet searches..etc) would seem to indicate that Lesnar was as big, if not bigger, of a draw as the headliners for that card. It isn't exactly scientific but two of the biggest days in terms of traffic in the history of this site were for UFC 81 and 87.
Now comes news that Countdown to UFC 91 drew poor ratings..as in 10% lower than the average for 2008 Countdown shows. This is just awful news considering that the UFC has been trying to sell this as one of the biggest fights in the history of the promotion.
In searching for answers to why the ratings for the countdown were SO bad the same question just kept popping up in my head. Is this Randy's fault?
American sports fans are notorious for turning on athletes that get involved in disputes over money or contracts that they willingly signed. I'm not saying that I thought his actions were right or wrong, but I wonder how much it hurt Randy in the eyes of the super casual fans to see a fighter turn into "just another spoiled athlete looking for more money." Most people who don't follow the sport closely don't care about Fedor or understand that Randy really wanted to make that fight happen. They just know that the fights they want to see aren't happening because of "contract problems."
Add that in to the fact that Randy was made into a non-entity for the better part of a year (scaling back on mentioning his name, not showing him in fighter corners..etc) and I wonder if the kind of sub-par interest in this show to this point can be pinned on Randy Couture's break from the UFC.
Obviously a fair portion of the blame would have to be placed on the UFC for an odd lack of a big promotional machine behind the card but could it be that the fans have turned on Randy?
Editorial Note: I should go ahead and note what many people already have in the comments. This countdown was on at a different time than is normal and being that it was on a Monday night did have to go up against football. So this could also be a very understandable reason for the decrease in viewership.
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Well,
I never thought about it like that, but you may be onto something. While some of the more serious fans (myself included) admire the attempt Randy made, you might have hit the nail on the head with the “super casual fans”.
Key word: “some” of the more serious fans.
I kept my finger on the pulse of the MMA online fandom regarding Randy. Immediately after he sent his resignation, something like 95% of the online fandom immediately took his side, and supported him against the UFC. By this past August, probably 40-50% of online fans were actively against Randy in his quest, and a large percentage of those were down on Randy in general, to the point of having a negative overall opinion of him.
I don’t know if that impact carried through to the casual fans, Randy’s actions clearly tarnished his image in the eyes of a lot of the hardcores.
by Michaelthebox on Nov 12, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Here's my two cents
I have a good friend of mine who is training for his first fight right now – he’s the biggest MMA fan I know. When I told him about Randy resigning and showed him the press conference, he looked like someone kicked his dog. ‘Randy Couture is a whiny little bitch’ was all he had to say for about thirty minutes. The man definitely did himself a disservice there.
That being said, I think all kinds of fans that would’ve normally watched Countdown have a) seen the clips online and/or b) already know they’re buying the fight. I do think this card can sell a million buys.
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 12, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
I keep hearing other people say that they are not buying/watching because of the undercard
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
interesting...........
Non hyped undercard bouts have a way of stealing the show.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Nov 12, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
I hear that too/
This is one of those cards the UFC occasionally pumps out that only has 1 eye popping fight. You could make the case that it isn’t because this card also has Florian/Stevenson but beyond that there is nothing really of interest.
I will concede...
that the undercard is very weak…but Couture/Lesnar SHOULD be able to carry a weaker undercard.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 12, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Better questions:
- Has anyone shown a connection between Countdown show numbers and PPV buys?
- Was there something better on in the same time slot?
Also: I TiVo’d the show and in my time slot there was a movie that ran long by 5 minutes at the beginning – a lot of channel flippers may have gotten bored and bailed when they didn’t see something they liked.
BTW: I’m just gonna guess the last 5 minutes: Brock acted like a douche and they showed more video of Randy looking tired and sweaty.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
TIVO
this kind of thing happened before earlier this year when a TUF episode drew it’s lowest ratings ever. alot of comcast viewers had problems with their tivo and dvr because the schedueling was off. they fixed it and the following week the ratings doubled. hmmmm.
personally, this is the first card i’m ordered in probably 8 months or so (mainly because i’m always traveling or busy when the big cards happen). i still believe it’ll do huge numbers.
as someone said in another post comment… i think we’re putting too much weight on this correlation between countdown ratings and ppv buys. i think the monday vs tuesday airtime (going up against monday night football) plays a part in that.
this fight has gotten WAY more hype on espn than any recent ones i can remember. that’s gotta account for something.
i understand where this piece is coming from (and it’s entirely possible), but i dont really know how clued in the casual fan really was to whole couture legal saga anyway. even people i know who i would consider avid fans, either didnt have a clue, or didnt care, what his contract status was…. and i’m sure they’ll all be tuning in this weekend.
UFC's promotional machine
really seems like a hit or miss prospect. They will throw all their eggs into one basket (Liddell vs. Jackson) and just have middle of the road promotional jobs for the rest. I realize that this is partially due to the budgets assigned to each card but as the current political season has shown, there are lots of ways to get free or cheap advertising. To hit a million buys, they need to have every ‘hardcore’ fan and a bunch of casual fans willing to pay. Unfortunately, especially with this economy, the undercard does not motivate the ‘hardcore’ fans. Especially with the Dec. PPV looking so strong.
I don’t think his desire for increased pay turned anyone against him. I think it’s fairly well known that these athlestes are getting paid their worth for the most part. For what Randy does in there and goes through in training, I think he is perfectly justified in asking for more and then holding out.
It turned plenty of people against him.
by Richard Wade on Nov 12, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I know that he lost some of my respect. I don’t care about him trying to get a good deal, but he:
- made a deal
- decided it wasn’t enough
- screwed around and left the fans and the heavyweight division in a mess
- teased us all into thinking he was fighting Fedor
- came back to fight Cock Chestnar of all people.
Not classy, Randy, Not classy.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 12, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I did not think Randy had a say in who his opponent was when he came back.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
And I think it’s safe to assume he made the decision based on getting a percentage of the PPV revenue and deciding that Brock would pull the best numbers.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I guarantee you people turned against him. The comparison of threads right after the resignation, and this past summer, was night and day. Threads this summer about Randy would generally have roughly half the posts condemning him for his behaviour, with a lot of them actively calling him greedy, fight ducker, and so forth.
by Michaelthebox on Nov 12, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
I seriously doubt joe public knows much about it or cares..
and considering the hardcore MMa fans make up a small % of PPV buys, I don’t think will effect the buy rate for the show.
You have a good point about sports fans holding grudges against athletes in contract dispute. Personally, I always felt Randy was wong on this one and he should man up and fulfill his end of the contract. If the UFC broke the contract in any way, I could see him holding out and doing what he did, but I never saw justification in his actions. In the end, it really did seem greedy to me. Regardless of what happened, I don’t hold it against Randy and I still really like him. I still pick him to win against Lesnar. I suppose we’ll see soon enough whether Dana was right or not.
This is all barking up the wrong tree.
1) The show will still do amazing numbers. There are numerous factors that feed into countdown ratings, including placement and what it follows.
2) 99% of fans have no idea about the contract dispute really. My roommate just thought Randy took a long time off. The only people that turned against him are a very small portion of hardcores.
3) The connection between countdowns and buyrates is tenuous.
4) The undercard being weak has absolutely nothing to do with the success or failure of this card. Every single countdown special is hyped just as countdown with one main event in the program. Nobody watches them due to the undercard, thats why viewership always declines when it moves to the semi main.
I forgot to conclude...
with the fact that I still think this show will do big PPV numbers.
But while the connection between countdown and buyrates isn’t exactly scientific…a 10% decrease in viewership is…odd.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 12, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Is it possible that the increased coverage on ESPN has led to fewer people needing to watch the hype show?
by Richard Wade on Nov 12, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t ever watch the Countdown shows, so maybe I’m not the best person for this, but aren’t they usually on Tuesdays?
Monday Night football is a ratings monster, especially for cable.
I’m really not concerned about the ratings drop because this. It was probably stupid to put it against Monday night football, but that doesn’t change the fact that it happened, and can probably explain the ratings drop.
Brock Lesnar is more in the casual conscience too. One of my roommates saw him on ESPN and asked me a bunch of questions about him. He has no idea who Randy is, but remembered Lesnar. I think Brock inspires a sort of curiosity in people because of his size and persona. It’s not so surprising Brock draws higher ratings.
I’m sick of hearing that the undercard is weak.
Joe Stevenson vs Kenny Florian
Demian Maia vs Nate Quarry
Dustin Hazelett vs Tamdon McCrory
That’s definatly better than a few of the undercards I’ve seen this year.
Doesn’t matter what it actually is. If a lot of people think the undercard is weak, then the perception exists that its weak.
by Michaelthebox on Nov 12, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
The financial markets (especially in the U.S.) are worse than a women during PMS – you just never know what is going to make them emotional.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Casuals have no idea who those people are, and lack of any mention of their names by the UFC = casuals still don’t know who those people are.
Keep up? My point is that Brock is the only name Dana is worried about selling. Seems you don't understand how..
big names sell PPV and undercard doesn’t affect that.
You should probably go back to the beginning of this sub-thread (Zack Gobies comment) and see what you’re replying to.
How dare you guys go off on a tangent about the undercard in this discussion about whether Brock’s name and creative chest-tat can carry the ppv sales by itself. Ridiculous.
(just trying to keep up)
You know, of all the homophobes with chest-penis tattoos, Brock is my least favorite.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Three of those guys were on TUF. You don’t think casuals know who they are?
by Richard Wade on Nov 12, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
STOP TALKING SENSE! YOU’RE CONFUSING THE ISSUE WITH LOGIC AND FACTS!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Casuals arent going to remember more than 1-2 names from each season if that. Especially a couple of names from 2-3 yrs ago.
We’re talking about a viewing audience who could barely tell you who Brock is fighting.
It’s hard to guage things from within the fishbowl. And thats exactly where us ‘Hardcores’ are looking from.
All three of them have been Main Eventers for Pay Per Views and fought for titles. Also, Stevenson won his season of TUF and Florian was in the finals of his. I think there’s at least a chance casuals know the names of guys like that.
by Richard Wade on Nov 12, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
As hyped up as Dana is
It seems like a boring fight, it’s just 2 wrestlers. I"m not as excited for this as I am for the one in december, which is an awesome all around card. Can anyone name the other main card fights for this ufc? I can’t, and I’m seriously addicted to mma. One fight can’t carry a whole card, and a matchup of 2 wrestlers isn’t as cool as seeing(if he were still in the ufc) arlovski vs lesnar… or a striker vs. lesnar. Lets get a striker with a good sprawl game against him… I wanna see this guy get hit. See how he reacts… so far weve had 3 grapplers.(mir, herring, couture). Just isn’t as exciting as everyone wants to think.
This is kind of getting insane. If show does badly people will blame it on the undercard, which they don’t like, but has absolutely nothing to do with the buyrate. Nothing.
I just don't see how
anything Brock has done, or failed to do, will discourage that same group from purchasing this time around.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I'm pretty sure it will outperform his previous shows,
but I’m not buying the 1.2 million that Dana’s declaring he’ll get. They’ve done some serious mainstream ESPN spots for this one, and I think that’ll have an impact. Plus, all of Randy’s fans will tune in.
It’ll be great, but I don’t think it’ll be the greatest of all time. Just top five.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
out of curiousity...
what kind of numbers did the two shows with brock on them, do?
what about randy’s fights with sylvia and gonzaga?
i wonder how much overlap there is (same people who paid to see both) or if they both have specific fanbases that will combine for a higher buy.
Old news?
Part of the countdown not really appealing to me is that I already knew everything about randy from the umpteen other life story shows I’ve seen on him. Same with Brock.. there isn’t much there to expand on,. Least of all a feud.
ALSO: They’re doing two other 30 minute specials this week focusing on both Brock and Randy.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Dude, you’re leaving out that the old guy is a crafty veteran! And the young guy is a douchey steroid aficionado! And….. that’s pretty much it.
By the way, I know that some guys experience a growth spurt from 21-23 – uncommon but not rare – but is there an explanation for Brock growing 3 inches in height from high school to today?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I had an uncle who gre four inches between 18 and 20.
And if you look at Brock’s NCAA Championship match against Wes Hand you can pretty clearly see that this is a guy whose body isn’t maxxed out. He’s ridiculously broad, of course, but he doesn’t look like I’d have thought he would look at that age. Care to take a guess at his body fat %?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Did you not get the memo that says he’s just an incredibly gifted athlete with rare dna?
:-)
I have no idea if he’s taken steroids or not. I may have suspicions, of course. But mostly I find it hilarious how quick Lesnar fans usually are to discount even the possibility. And how easy it usually is for you and your steroid rant to bait them into the discussion. I’m expecting they’ll be here to vehemently deny any needle usage by Brock in 5, 4, 3, …
And really, the only reason I do it is because I’m so fond of the word “aficionado.”
Topic for the day: Not failing a test doesn’t mean you’re not juicing. Reasons
- You quit juicing long enough before the test that it left your system
- You take steroids for which there are no tests yet
- You use a tube and a hand pump to force your neighbor’s urine up into your bladder.
For Brock, I’m guessing…. two and three. I can see it in his eyes.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I hope you realize I was joking above. I know all about Marion Jones, who never failed a drug test either :)
Oh, I know – just hoping somebody would take the bait. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
# You use a tube and a hand pump to force your neighbor’s urine up into your bladder.
Ok that just made me very very ill :/
The somewhat disheartening aspect of this
is that this specific action is among the less self-destructive that our prized athletes engage in during their quest for supremacy.
And it’s really not all that bad..and usually they don’t use a hand-pump, but rather a 60mL syringe and a standard Foley catheter. The whole procedure takes about two minutes.
I know – I’m a nurse :(
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Nov 13, 2008 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I feel like I ought to flag your comment as offensive.
by Richard Wade on Nov 13, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Man, oh man.
I expect better from a BloodyElbow.com writer. And to answer your inquiry, the most obvious reason lies within the undercard, which to a “hardcore fan” is nice enough, but I imagine lacks steam for the “casual fan.” And just between you and me, I do not believe that many persons willing to buy this weekend’s ppv or who would have actually bought it even truly having knowledge about Randy Couture’s contractual disputes.
"Common sense is in spite of, not as the result of education. "
-Victor Hugo
The countdown shows rarely spend much, if any, time discussing the undercard fighters. I’m not sure how the lack of excitement for the undercard translates into a decreased viewership for the Countdown show. Then again, I’m not sure that decreased viewership for the Countdown show necessarily means a lack of interest in the ppv this weekend, either.
I have no idea what “Um, lono” is supposed to mean. Am I showing my age? Maybe nobody understands what you’re getting at …
by Kierkegaard on Nov 13, 2008 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
You expect better of me?
You expect better of me than to pose a question? I don’t really understand what you’re getting at…but okay.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 12, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah man: BE is supposed to be declarative statements all the way. Questions are for commies.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Nov 12, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the low number is simply because the Countdown show was on a different day than usual. Ever since this fight was created the UFC has talked about this fight getting a 24/7 type treatement, three different countdown shows or just the same promotion as a usual pay per view as it sells itself.
The whole thing was very confusing and then they shove the central countdown show on a day that it isn’t usually on. Of course there’s going to be a loss in numbers. My guess is there probably would have been abigger loss if it weren’t for how much everyone is into this fight.
Finally, possible low numbers would have nothing to do with the undercard. The hardcore hardcores who refuse to pay for Lesnar are very small in number and probably haven’t paid for a pay per view since Gracie triangle choked Severn. Not getting their $50+ is hardly going to do anything and from what I’ve gathered anyway most hardcores are spraying their shorts over McCrory vs. Hazelett anyway.
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