A Word About Mixed Martial Arts Blogs' Role
by Luke Thomas on Oct 8, 2008 3:30 PM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintI have received several emails and various other forms of nudges from readers and fans that I or someone else at BloodyElbow.com should put forth the formal complaint to Florida's athletic commission to get EliteXC investigated. Since no one else seems interested, there is now a growing onus on members of the blogosphere to push the action, so to speak. Personally, I'd like time to think it over before taking any action.
What I can say for sure, though, is that the notion we in the blogosphere or online media are out of control, acting unethically or without measured demeanor in a rush to lynch mob EliteXC is largely absurd. In fairness, I have read some commentary that should give anyone reasonable chills or revulsion. Some of the attacks on Slice I've found to be enormously distasteful and even distressing. They have no place now or ever.
What does have place is the right to demand information and ask pointed, difficult questions - about EliteXC, about Slice and his bubble, about Petruzelli's comments and about ProElite's health. Officials associated with EliteXC are free to do as they like and treat this situation as they see fit. And we have a responsibility until further information is revealed to not accuse anyone specifically of any wrongdoing. But the universe between that and asking questions about this matter is enormous. However uncomfortable this may make Jeremy Lappen or Jared Shaw is irrelevant; we have a right at all times to ask what is happening, why and what's going to be done about it. Conversely, everyone involved with Saturday's EliteXC show is allowed to either provide the information or not. They are free to deny, dismiss or investigate Petruzelli's comments if they wish.
But do not let anyone tell you we are out of bounds or hysterical for raising this issue. Even if Petruzelli misspoke, it's a major, major, major gaffe. The truth is his two stories are radically different in terms of their ethical implications and character. To first suggest he was nudged by officials at EliteXC to stand which caused him to abandon his gameplan of shooting in to something admittedly innocuous requires complete and total explanation. It's up to you readers to decide if EliteXC has answered those questions satisfactorily, but do not let anyone tell you demanding the information in the first place is something only tin foil hat donning banshees require.
It's not. What it is is plenty ethical, plenty reasonable and worthy of real concern. There is no room to convict anyone with the current information, but there is plenty of room to force an answer that makes sense. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Ever.
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Great Article
I couldn’t agree with you more Luke. I’ve always seen these blogs and forums as a place for discussion between insiders of the sport and fans to create a community to discuss and simply talk about MMA. Thank you for all the work you guys do.
On sherdog radio today… Seth said he was actually referring to a “KO of the night” bonus but he did say that no “Submission of the night” was offered or talked about.
Benji Radach led off the CBS portion of Elite XC: Heat with an exciting second-round knockout of "Ninja" Rua, but says he was never informed by Elite XC officials before the bout that there was even the possibility of a ‘knockout of the night’ bonus, as Seth Petruzelli says he received for felling Kimbo Slice.
Can't ignore it anymore
You know EliteXC has no one to blame but themselves. I have been critical of their matchmaking and fighter favoritizm for a while now because it is so obvious. They set up weightclasses for their featured fighter and then favor them in matchmaking. And you have $kala, an EliteXC VP, screaming at the refs to favor his fighter not once but twice now. It is so obvious the fix is in and it blew up in their face. They are making themselves look like an untrustworthy organization almost all the way around. Which is too bad because there is some talent on their roster, they are just not using it right. And it makes the whole sport look bad. This should be looked into. Too many incidents to ignore.
KJ Noons: “(EliteXC) is starting to look like WWF”
AH: Given your past with the promotion, I feel compelled to ask for your take on all this Seth Petruzelli bribery business. Were you surprised when you heard his initial comments?
KJN: It just makes me and my story look a lot more credible. You know, a promotion is going to do whatever they are going to do. I just don’t want to be taken advantage of pretty much like they are taking advantage of the whole sport. It’s starting to look like the WWF or a circus. They are going to do whatever they want (but) hopefully they will respect the sport a little bit better and these type of things won’t happen.
AH: What do you mean when you say they are ‘taking advantage of the sport’?
KJN: I mean, do I really have to say much? Look at what kind of show they are promoting instead of actual real talent. I mean, if people want to see that and that’s what you want to promote then go ahead. But, like I said, obviously they don’t want to promote an athlete like me so maybe another organization will want to see me fight.
Blogs....
Have no defined role. They do as they please…100% informal.
Anyone read this post from another website?
Okay, I think people need a HISTORY LESSON:
1) EliteXC was formed by Gary Shaw, a boxing promoter, who obviously is a big fan of KOs.
2) When EliteXC started, they were thinking about having a 30 sec clock running down when the fights are taken to the ground. If there was no action for 30 seconds, then the fight would be stood up. The point of why EliteXC has these rules are NOT because they are rigging fights, but because they want fights to be wars that end in KOs, because they initially thought that is what fans want. They were going to slowly introduce the ground game to people, because they felt they need to learn more about the ground game to appreciate it. This explains why there was NO ground fighters in the first CBS card.
3) This doesn’t mean they DONT value a ground game. Wilson Reis (BW CHAMP) and Jake Shields(WW CHAMP) are two people that EliteXC heavily supports, and they are PURE ground fighters. Why EliteXC likes them is that they are EXCITING ground fighters. They go for sumissions NON STOP and don’t just Lay And Pray.
4) When Scott Smith and Robbie Lawler finished their May 31st fight as a No Contest, Gary Shaw went up and announced that they were both getting paid for Winning Purses and Fight of The Night.
5) Every fighters contracts are different. EliteXC could only offer those bonuses to the Main Events. Also, depending on the contract, these "undisclosed bonuses" that even the UFC offers are not guaranteed for everyone. Randy Couture left the UFC due to "Undisclosed Bonuses" being handed to different fighters in the locker room, which are not reported to the commissions because they don’t care about those things.
Hope you guys can do a bit of research before posting all this "proof" without any reasoning behind it.
No one here said proof, but its a reason to investigate.
1. If Gary Shaw likes stand up fights he should have stayed in boxing
2. Fights get broken up when one guy is stalling (standing clinch or on the ground), similar to wrestling. There is no 30 second clock.
3. LnP is boring, but if you can win then good for you. I personally think a fighter that can’t get up deserves to be down. That is something I learned from wrestling.
4. I don’t care. That doesn’t really have anything to do with this.
5. True, every contract can be structured diffrently, but the AC would like to know if a fighter get a “bonus” for losing or giving another fighter an advantage.
In short, research is required. Integrity, thought, and commen sense are also required. Seth’s first comments are damning, there is not question about that. All of these other rumors are just that, rumors. They should be investigated because the risk of not investigating is greater then the small risk of seeing if anything is there.
You missed some points.
2) There WAS a plan to do that, but they didn’t. It seems the point of that was to stress exciting fights, even on the ground and to discourage LnP.
3) Even the UFC fired Jake O’Brien for winning by LnP.
4) Refer to point # 2.
5) The AC doesnt care. The UFC does it too and the AC doesn’t care either.
2. so who cares. its not relevent what the Shaws like. They are promoting a sport and that sport has rules. They can’t tell a baseball players to swing away when it 3-0 because homeruns are exciting. Winning matters.
3. Jake O’Brien was hurt and laid up for a year after beating HH and then cam back and got crushed by AA AND Cain Velasquez. He just fought in July for the UFC. He hasn’t fought since.
4. Refer to 2.
5. So the AC doesn’t care if they fix fight by giving bonus’ to guys for losing? Is the AC in on the fight fixing? Maybe you should read more carefully.
5) Regarding your post here:
This is from an article.
“The practice of fighters getting undisclosed bonus pay after the fight is common in mixed martial arts, and has been admitted to by UFC president Dana White during last year’s contract dispute with UFC champion Randy Couture. Not only are these hidden bonuses common practice, Antonacci said they are allowed by the commission.”
I'm not sure that they're the same thing...
“Undisclosed bonus” here refers to extra pay that is not reported to the commission (e.g. PPV bonus, win bonus, etc.). That is to mean that extra pay is part of the contract but are not reported to the commission.
The UFC has never given bonuses to a fighter IF, and only IF, a fighter fight a certain way. Furthermore, hidden bonuses were given out by discretion by Zuffa for putting on a great fight, which is the primary objective of all fighters. There is a fine line between (1) performance bonuses and (2) discretionary bonuses and bonuses that are given for the sole purpose of influencing a fighter to fight a certain way in order to increase or decrease the chance of either fighter winning the fight. That is a fix.
In simpler terms, imagine this: Would the UFC/EliteXC hidden bonus for Randy Couture influence gamblers to bet differently had they known what it is? If yes, then it’s illegal. If not, then it’s legal. Would a Randy PPV bonus change your bet for his fight versus Brock Lesnar? Probably not. Now, if it was a PPV bonus with the condition that Randy Couture knock out Brock Lesnar, then that would be a fix.
The thing is, no one knows what the fine line is, and really, it doesn’t matter. It is whatever the owners want it to be for whatever reasons and they don’t need to explain it to anyone.
“It is whatever the owners want it to be for whatever reasons and they don’t need to explain it to anyone.”
Did you ignore the whole “legal/illegal” dichotomy?
by Michaelthebox on Oct 8, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope. Im just pointing out that there is no way for the public to know what happens behind the scenes.
But if its illegal, the public should find out about it, and act accordingly. Stating that they don’t need to explain it to anyone only works if their actions are on the up and up.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 8, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Giving a undisclosed bonus for having a good fight is completely different than giving a undisclosed bonus designed to change a fighters strategy going into the fight. The issue isn’t the bonus money it’s the way the bonus money is applied. Even after Petruzelli has modified/clarified and outright changed his statement he is still holding to the fact that he was originally wanting to take Kimbo down but changed his entire strategy going into the fight because he wanted the knock out bonus. There is no submission bonus and it’s not a bonus for just having a good fight it’s a specific bonus designed to coerce the specific fighter it’s offered to to fight in the manner that EliteXC wants them to fight. That’s completely and utterly different than anything we have ever heard coming out of the UFC regarding any bonuses.
The fact is that Seth Petruzelli was offered a knock out bonus but no submission bonus, that’s been confirmed and even if that’s not blatantly fight fixing it is shady as hell and has no place in the sport. There is no reason to offer a specific fighter a specific bonus like that right before a specific fight unless you are trying to influence how they gameplan for that fight.
how come there wasnt a “KO bonus” as it is now called offered to Radach? so far we know this “ko bonus” was offered only to Seth and Ken shamrock.
Lappen said not all contracts are the same. Some contracts have them, some dont.
Obviously Radach probably doesn’t need an incentive to KTFO somebody… :)
Contracted money, IMO, should be reported to the AC. Am I wrong. The true bonus money is not in the contract.
I don’t think you understand. If its in your contract then it gets reported. If the org is required to give you the money by the contract then it gets reported. Money outside of the contract and reported earnings is what the AC doesn’t care about. Maybe I am not correct, but its a simple question to the AC or a simple act of reading the contract.
Again, in case you missed it:
"The practice of fighters getting undisclosed bonus pay after the fight is common in mixed martial arts, and has been admitted to by UFC president Dana White during last year’s contract dispute with UFC champion Randy Couture. Not only are these hidden bonuses common practice, Antonacci said they are allowed by the commission."
No, the AC only cares about the fight purse and the only reason they care is to make sure the fighter actually gets paid that money.
That money needs to be in an account before the card starts, and the AC needs to be 100% that the money gets paid.
Anything that is not for the fight (KO/Sub/FOTN bonus, parts of signing bonuses, PPV bonus, “locker room bonus,” appearance fees, whatever) are not in the bout agreement and therefore the commission doesn’t care.
Like the Randy example, he had the 500k “signing bonus” that was 250k when he signed and 250k after he fought Sylvia written into his contract, no AC mentioned it because it wasn’t in the bout agreements , we only know about it because of the issues that came out later.
Rome Is Burning Just Dusted EliteXC About No Shoot
Called EliteXC a farce and no better than pro-wrestling based on Seth’s comments. Said “You can find another Kimbo Slice but never get back your cred. What in the world is CBS doing in the middle of this?”
Seth and family threatened after fight
Another thing I am hearing out of the weekends fiasco is Kimbo’s entourage threatening Seth’s wife and friends. Very professional.
ELITE.
i can remember after the 1rst show, cbs exec Kelly Kahl was going around on different mma webstes askinfg fans what they did and didnt like about that event and what they would like to see changed. gary shaw was one of the main complaints, and they put him in the background, but what good did that do them when they put his son jared as a replacement? alot of people complained about the rappers, the dancers, the fight entances and they cut alot of that out as well, then the 2nd show tanked in the ratings. i think cbs knows what they need to do now (get rid of the shaws entirely and demote kimbo), but i think it’s a little too late for them to do anything now after the kimbo fiasco.
Also: book fair fights and don't bribe fighters ...
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich.--Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
If people want to get their panties in a bunch over “undisclosed” bonuses given to “selected fighters” – why isn’t anyone acknowledging that Dana White has constantly gone on the record about “locker-room/shower-room” bonuses that are given to fighters in private and undisclosed following the fights.
These are NOT the same as “KO”- or “Submission”-of the night bonuses and were purely “discretional” and not available to every fighter, etc., etc.
There is no law that says you have to report any bonuses at all.
The UFC does it as a marketing tool to highlight those fighters to the public.
They are supposed to report payments to fighters, the difference is that the athletic commissions don’t have to report that to the general public. All that is ever released by athletic commissions is base pay and win bonuses but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t informed of any of the other pay. Heck not even every athletic commission reports base pay to the public; we shouldn’t assume that what the athletic commissions release to the public is the only thing that is reported to them.
The difference is in what Petruzelli first said
Petruzelli’s first comment implied that he was offered a pre-fight incentive to keep things standing; that’s coercion, bribery, fixing – whatever you want to call it.
When the UFC pay their fighters discretionary post-fight (undisclosed) bonuses, then that’s more along the lines of “job well done, here’s some more $$$ over and above your contract”
There’s a world of difference between the two situations.
by VikingPhotography on Oct 8, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You nailed it.
It’s all about trying to affect HOW THE FIGHT IS FOUGHT before it actually takes place. Afterward, give people whatever you want—it ain’t affecting a fight that already took place.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich.--Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
Yeah, the problem is no one knows what is being offered before or after since they are undisclosed. Do you guys get that? :)
It does not matter.
If this accusation came against the UFC, I’d say it needs to be looked at. A person could rob a bank and get away with it. Are you saying someone that is caught robbing a bank later shouldn’t be jailed, because the first person wasn’t caught? I’m not saying anyone did anything wrong. I just believe there’s enough here for the situation to be investigated. What the UFC did or didn’t do is irrelevant to this matter. The allegations against EXC aren’t equivalent to any of the known bonuses given out by Dana White.
by Cannon Jacques on Oct 8, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The point of contention, for me anyway, is that a promotion was allegedly giving a bonus to a specific fighter, so he wouldn’t use a specific aspect of his skill set against a specified fighter. In my opinion, this goes too far in trying to affect the way in which a fight plays out. Keith Kizer on the NSAC expressed his concern for the allegations here. This is an excerpt from Kizer:
Nevada State Athletic Commission executive director Keith Kizer subsequently informed MMAWeekly.com he had brought the comments to the attention of EliteXC co-matchmaker JT Steele, who emphatically denied any payoff.
"Hypothetically, if that happened, and we found out later that one of the fighters or both were told, ‘look, you need to fight a certain way,’ or some incentive not to utilize part of your skills, I would file a complaint," Kizer said. "I would file a complaint against the promoter; I would probably file a complaint against the athlete as well."
by Cannon Jacques on Oct 8, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I agree with you – what I’m saying is that Dana admits they give unreported bonuses that are unregulated and based on basically whatever whim they please.
They really arent that different from any type of bonus that was given to Seth but apparently unavailable to others.
More people on blogs thinking they’re far more “important”, “in the know” and influential than in reality. But hey it gets the pageviews up when you stir controversy.
Its still a lot different. Bonuses given after the fight, for positive results, is a lot different than bonuses promised prior to the fight for acting a specific way during the fight.
I think the locker-room bonuses in the UFC should be phased out, because of the potential of the UFC skewing the results in one direction over time by consistently giving bonuses to certain types of performances, such as standup performances over ground performances. But thats not a smoking-gun issue. Offering a bonus prior to a fight for a specific method of fighting that plays into the favored fighter’s strengths is a huge smoking gun.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 8, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Proof
If you think Seth’s second statement was a big contradiction of his first get a load of this:
Seth was interviewed by sam caplan:
Sam Caplan: Would you have received a bonus had you submitted Kimbo?
Seth Petruzelli: Yes. There were submission bonuses, knockout bonuses, and a "Fight of the Night" bonus — just like the UFC does it. They just want an exciting fight no matter where it goes.
Sam Caplan: Did the submission bonus pay the same as the knockout bonus?
Seth Petruzelli: Yes. Every bonus is the same.
Now Josh Gross just interviewed Jeremy Lapen:
EliteXC, it seems, does not view submissions, widely thought of as the most technical aspect of MMA, as an overly important portion of an exciting fight.
“We don’t give submission bonuses,” Lappen said. But Petruzelli “knew a knockout bonus was possible before the fight.”
(source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/10/08/seth.petruzelli/index.html?eref=T1 )
Benji Radach confirmed on sherdog radio:
“No, not at all,” Radach said, when asked whether Elite XC officials ever mentioned knockout, submission, or fight of the night bonuses, before or after the event. “I wish there was a bonus because I think my fight was really exciting, maybe fight of the night or knockout of the night. But nope, I never heard anything.”
Sounds like Seth is taking his back tracking a little too far.
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