Roy Nelson Suggests Jared Shaw Affected Arlovski Fight; Says 70 Percent of MMA Fighters on Steroids
by Luke Thomas on Oct 29, 2008 8:55 AM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintFrom what I can gather, Nelson is suggesting Jared Shaw either instructed the referees ahead of time or yelled at the referees during the fight such that it compelled them to stand up when he had Arlovski pinned in side control. He also goes on to suggest a huge portion of MMA fighters are on steroids, though the method behind his math is certainly questionable.
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SMH
I’m sick and tired of guys coming out and saying that a certain percentage of MMA fighters are taking steriods with absolutely no proof. I mean if you know that certain guys are taking something and don’t want to call them out…just keep it to yourself. However, if they are going to go through the trouble of throwing out percentages…have a way to back it up.
http://mma4real.net/
It’s just hearsay. That’s all he presented it as. His “proof” is that someone told him _ is juicing. The interviewer asked Roy’s opinion so Roy gave his opinion. If someone was interviewed and said they think absolutely nobody is juicing it would hold the same weight. Neither argument needs proof to have an opinion; he’s not testifying or accusing anyone in particular.
sour grapes
i can’t believe he is making statements like this without proof. sounds like sour grapes to me
I'm going to respectfully disagree with "big country"
Steroids don’t necessarily give an advantage in this sport, which is part of its appeal to me. Look at the steroid cases I could find. Kimo (loss), Franca (loss), Bonnar (loss), Barnett (win), Sylvia (win), Royce (win), Belfort (loss), Pawel Nastula (loss), Baroni (loss), Johnnie Morton (loss), and Carina Damm (win). That is a 4-7 record in the fights that they were caught. It seems to have the effect of slowing down athletes a little, and in a sport like MMA where there are weight classes the strength advantage doesn’t seem to be worth the speed disadvantage (except maybe the HW division). Also MMA is one of the only sports that consistently tests its athletes so one would expect it to have the fewest steroid issues.
Well, he was asked about fighting guys with steroids and his response was “I just try and be the better fighter”…So what exactly are you disagreeing with?
I wrote that only because it was a big thing. I still think that if you look at all the facts he probably was innocent.
by EazyEismydad on Oct 28, 2008 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
While I do agree that steroids may not give an advantage in the sport, I disagree with using the wins or losses of caught fighters to prove that point. Many fighters who are caught are caught because they are careless or desperate. Careless fighters are less likely to train to their peak or have the intensity of focus to win at the highest level. Desperate fighters are desperate because they are fighting under circumstances that favor their opponent: in the case of Bonnar and Franca, for instance, their steroid use was supposedly due to the need to quickly recover from injury.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 28, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Win/loss records isn't a good measure
The win/loss record isn’t a good measure of steroid effectiveness. For one, fighters who feel like they need a “competive advantage” are disportionately going to be losers—if they were successful, they wouldn’t need to use a drug.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 28, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
um…I guarantee you most guys in the sport are flying under the radar with regards to being able to pass a piss test. You named a few fighters that got nailed. There are tons more that wouldn’t even be in the sport without the advantage steroids gives them.
I actually think that 70% number may be on the low end from what i have seen. Most of those physiques are not natural ones. I’ll tell you that.
What!
lol what physiques? They are just good athletes who spend the time in the gym.
I work out 1 hour a day … 4 days a week. Nothing compared to most of these guys. And only take multi-vitamins and drink protein shakes. At 175lbs im as well build as any welterweight (at least in appearance) … and with a weight cut would be one of the biggest LWs.
These guys are nothing incredible. They are not body builders. They are professional athletes with good diets, nutrition and 2 a day workout routines. Get a clue. Or hit the gym.
Saying steroids would not help a fighter for this sport is jst being naive. Which isn’t your fault as their is so much misinformation about steroids out their these days its crazy. Mostly due to the crazy media.
Steroids and other sports enhancements will help a fight by:
- increased strength, which comes greater speed and quickness, stronger punching power
- lower body fat… gives you an ability to be at the greatest size and strength for your weight class
- greatly increase your ability to recover from training. This means you can train harder and longer and recover even faster. More training time = more time to hone your skills
- helps you make weight
and kills your endurance. Extra muscle comes with a big price in mma: burning large amounts of fuel.
Which is something that can be fixed by training harder
Thiago Alves is a HUGE, very muscular 170lber. He had no problem going 5 rounds with koscheck
Sherk seems just fine going 3 rounds with his frantic pace
lesnar pounds herring for 3 rounds with ease
blanket statements don’t work well
And also one more thing…
These guys are some of the best athletes in the world. They are going to have elite genetics. A lot of these gys are not average joes like you or me
to accuse all of them of steroids and calling there physiques “not natural” jst because you look like shit and the average joe looks like is just being a jealous punk who doesn’t know what they are talking about
Not true. So sick of that lame “They are elite and you are not so you must be jealous” crap. Get off it. The fact of the matter is that it is fairly easy to tell the guys that are getting extra advantages. Very few people can look like some of these guys look without SOME form of performance enhancing drugs. You probably think the guys that compete in the Olympia are all natural as well.
The fact of the matter is that just like major league baseball, you have to assume most guys in professional sports are using because “The next guy is” and if they don’t, any advantage they once had will totally dissapear and they will fall out of the sport at some point.
Roids and HGH is a lot more prevalent in sports than anyone outside of the industry realizes. That glossy look on certain fighters isn’t because he’s oiled up like a wrestler, that’s the glaze from what he’s putting in his body.
Remember this, there are no definite tests for HGH and until so we will see freak athletes in all walks of sports and that isn’t because of genetics.
HGH is the problem.
From dealing with my semi-pro hockey friends and semi-pro fighter friends, HGH seems to be the much more prevalent drug of choice. There isn’t a definitive test for it, it’s alot “cleaner” than roids and less side effects, aside from diabetes. Steroids have become almost passe based of the negative effects. HGH is readily available in the US through Wellness Centers and Longevity clinics. As for cycling, alot of that has been negated by the advance testing they’re doing for MMA matches now, in Nevada, what is it? a month or so in advance of the match?
"Men like me are like comets, destined to be consumed by lighting up their century"
- Napolean
by Kris McKillop on Oct 29, 2008 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Roy thinks very highly of himself. There had to be a reason he lost, and it could not have been that AA was better than him.
I first heard him on TAGG and he rubbed me the wrong way. The more I hear him talk, the more I dislike him.
He didn’t say he would have won. He said it would have been a different fight, which is absolutely correct considering he was working a kimura and kneeing the body with no immediate threat of an escape.
Bad call..
This happens all the time, I don’t see how this is any different from any other inopportune stand up. They happen all the time. Refs by and large are fans as well and get bored with slow action. I don’t think it was the right call but bad calls happen. UFC, IFL, small promotions. Everywhere, bad calls on knock outs, bad calls on stand-ups and bad calls when Anthony Johnson gets his brain tickled by his opponent’s finger. Like seriously, just because Jared Shaw was there doesn’t mean he was trying to pull strings on a marginal match of two non-Elite XC fighters. He had no vested interest in Andrei winning. If anything he was probably in the beer line to beat the rush for the Kimbo fight. :P
"Men like me are like comets, destined to be consumed by lighting up their century"
- Napolean
by Kris McKillop on Oct 29, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh
I am so tired of steroid finger-pointing. I don’t doubt that many use some sort of questionable or illegal substances, but unless you have proof, please don’t name-call.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” – Carl Sagan. Respect, bitches.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 29, 2008 2:15 AM EDT reply actions
HGH
There isn’t an effective test for HGH. The side effects of HGH are extremely mild. The benefits of HGH are very solid. HGH is however pretty expensive.
If you’re a professional athlete, you’d be pretty much crazy not to be using HGH if you can find a good source. You won’t get caught in any test and the benefits heavily outweigh the side effects. You can also use other steroids and easily plan your cycles to have them out of your system by the time you fight. Most users will go with a combination to get the best effects.
That said, I kind of feel like MMA fighters are less likely to be using it than say football players. Ever notice how huge and shredded most NFL players are? Ever notice how skinny/scrawny/not muscular most (not all) MMA fighters are? When you do tons and tons of cardio (as MMA fighters do) there is a serious risk of losing muscle. But with roids, you can do much much more cardio without losing muscle.
Also a lot of MMA fighters really are too poor to afford the good stuff. 1k a cycle adds up when you get paid 10k a fight!
The brandishing of ignorance concerning A&P and steroids in these comments is painful.
If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t talk. It’s really that simple.
Why don't you enlighten us?
You obviously seem to be some sort of mma & biology genius. No doubt with countless facts and evidence to back your claims. Why resort to simple two line posts finger pointing. Just lay it all out to refute everything.
"Men like me are like comets, destined to be consumed by lighting up their century"
- Napolean
by Kris McKillop on Oct 29, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It might be more effective too...
if the claim about steroid use wasn’t coming from a guy 50 lbs overweight with a pot belly who “just likes to eat”.
Sounds like some serious sour grapes to me.
I'd have to agree..
If dude actually did some cardio and dieted he’d reap much greater rewards than anyong jacking themselves on substances. Like c’mon dude, how can you expect to go 3 rounds with someone of AA’s conditioning, heck, I think he’d be hard pressed to go 3 rounds with Pedro Rizzo. :P
"Men like me are like comets, destined to be consumed by lighting up their century"
- Napolean
by Kris McKillop on Oct 29, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone’s talking about the steroids comment… but what about him saying Jared Shaw made the ref stand them up to help Arlovski? What’s his basis for thinking that? (I can’t watch the video, I’m at work) Either he (Roy) is just sour grapes or Jared really was a scumbag (between this + the Kimbo fights)…
Keep Swillin',
Bruz
I hate to burst everyone's bubble here...
but one just needs to look at how somehow 95%~ of NFL players are passing drug tests to see the ineffectiveness and loopholes of the current drug testing systems and standards. The same goes for mma. These sports are full of rampant performance enhancing drug use and abuse.
I’m sorry but to think that a great deal of athletes at the highest of professional levels, in any sport, aren’t cutting corners or cheating in some way is beyond naive. The smart ones and the ones with deep pockets and good doctors AREN’T getting caught, while most of the lower names with less resources and ability to effectively cheat are getting nailed (“ones” being the cheaters).
I'm tired of people pulling numbers out of their asses...
I can make a blanket statement such as “most athletes are steroid users.”
or
“Athletes do not use steroids at all!”
Since I can’t back either of these claims up with proof, I tend to STFU.
Fact: 95% of NFL players are passing drug tests.
Conclusion 1: 95% of NFL players are clean.
Conclusion 2: 95% of NFL players are cheaters but are too smart to get caught.
Only people with a lack of logical thinking can jump to conclusion 2 when given the facts.
cyph, I agree with you, but…
It is obvious that there are a lot of athletes “getting away” with ped usage, even where it is tested. I don;t think we will ever know the exact extent, and if the sport has any sense, we shouldn’t. MLB aired their dirty laundry in public and it bit them hard. they lost huge stars that were at the end of their careers, raised questions about the legitimacy of their stats (which is huge in baseball) and lost a lot of fans. The NFL however, has done a very good job of keeping their business private and not letting the problem rage out of control. Then there is the NBA, which doesn’t even have a good list of banned drugs, because it would decimate the league if they did long term suspensions for marijuana, lol.
The question is, how does mma, which has so many comings and goings, different promotions and different AC’s (if any), deal with this? The testing is years behind the drugs. Could you imagine of someone like Randy tested positive? It could greatly damage a growing sport. IMO, the UFC or whomever, should do as much as possible, as soon as possible, to eliminate as much usage as possible. It is still early enough in the sports growth, that they could greatly fly under the radar.
Of course, my opinion isn’t perfect and I don;t have all the answers. But there is a problem and underestimating it is just as bad as throwing out 95% and 70% numbers everywhere.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
I have no doubt that there are certain fighters who are getting away with it. However, since I don’t know who, I’m not about to cast suspicions on everybody. It’s not fair to the honest athletes, who, through his genetics make up get lumped in with the cheaters. However, the penalty for getting caught is pretty steep. I tend to believe that the best athletes won’t risk their reputation, sponsorship, and career over it. The lower tier fighters may.
I assume everyone is innocent until caught. The NSAC is already implementing random testing. It’s a rat race. However, if you cheat, I expect that the person will eventually get caught. No one is good enough to cycle off perfectly every time. Furthermore, numerous studies have shown that HGH without steroid is ineffective for athletes. So for all the people who claim that HGH is the miracle drug, the science has proven that it isn’t.
cyph,
Keep your head in the sand all you want, but the reality of the situation is readily apparent. Baseball had a shitty PED policy, got called to the carpet for it and look what happened – power numbers magically dropped overnight, mega-stars were “outed” and exiled.
The NFL was smart. They got ahead of the curve and at least instituted some form of steroid/PED policy and this is what saved them. But their policies are extremely secretive and from all accounts quite substandard – I’d love to see how they test if they were run by completely unbiased 3rd parties and at a standard at least on par with IOC standards.
Sure I don’t have a smoking gun in hand for this – but to look at the insane size differential between eras of athletes and to hear scouting reports like, “so-and-so is a 6’7 and 315lb stud lineman, but we’d like to see him add bulk and strength” gives me a pretty sufficient understanding of the nature of things.
Not to mention the countless admissions and statements by former pros on the rampant performance enhancing drug use that went on while they played, which seems like pretty good evidence to me.
I mean everyone calls out Jose Canseco for for all the claims he made and things he said, but one thing that stands over all is that he was telling the truth, regardless of his ultimate motivations.
by Frank_Castle on Oct 29, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Partially agree, and while I don’t speak for cyph, I doubt if he has his head in the sand. I think he is just tired of people flinging random statistics around.
I think you hit on a HUGE point, the admissions of past players. People, including the commissioners, need to pay attention to these people, just like on the concussion topic.
On a side note, did you see Canseco now regrets naming names? That guy is hilarious, somebody get him his own sitcom asap.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
I’m not arguing about the NFL at all. I know baseball is tainted. I know the NFL was or is currently tainted to a lesser extent.
However, we’re talking about MMA here right? Testing is currently performed for events sanctioned in most states. Random testing is also in process in Nevada and probably California.
Yeah
because we’ve in no way learned anything about training and nutrition since previous eras….
I’m not saying that there are no users (in MMA or any other sport), however, stating that people are still getting away with it regardless of testing just because is more than a bit weak.
As much as I may agree with some of what Frank said, I also agree with this. It isn’t only athletes that are bigger, but people as a whole. However, when you compare the size differences over different eras, the past 20-30 years is out pf whack. Not saying peds is why, but there is some reason for sure.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
Yes to an extent nutrition and training will play a role in the size difference. But c’mon – linebackers of 10-20 years ago would have trouble being a safety today. The prime example (and I realize this is a bit of a straw man, but) is someone like Barry Bonds. Compare him over the span of his career and this is the size change that is pretty much the norm between atheletes from the late 80s and early 90’s to atheletes today.
Nutrition and training does NOT explain away how you go from “big”, strong and athletic competitors to absolutely rippled, massive individuals that would have normally been seen in a Mr. Universe contest now donning sports uniforms. Yes they still need the athletic ability to be elite athletes, but you’re kidding yourself if you think a lot of people don’t believe that it won’t be enough to just have elite athlete skill.
And as for people as a whole, I think we could delve into an entirely separate and equally hotly debated subject of genetically engineered foods and foods that are laced out the behind in growth hormones, steroids, etc.
by Frank_Castle on Oct 29, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, i think it is a combination of many factors. When there are millions of dollars on the line, it is hard to imagine an athlete not “doing the little extra something”.
On a side, I actually was around Bonds when he was in college at ASU. He played semi-pro ball in the summers after the college season ended and he played in the little city in Kansas where I grew up. I ran the scoreboard for the team, so I got to be a little privy to some of the team business. Dude was an A-hole and almost got kicked off the team for his attitude. You would never recognize him physically as the guy you see the past few years. I know he never tested positive, but there is no doubt in my mind that he juiced.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
This is legit
Fact 1: Bonds was thin and then became massive almost overnight.
Fact 2: His performance improved tremendously.
Fact 2: People accused him of juicing.
Fact 3: Sellers admitted to selling him steroids.
Given the facts, I think it’s logical to conclude that. Now, I would take umbrage to people accusing Cheik Congo or Alves of juicing just because they look big. Some people are just built that way.
Totally agree with you, however, facts 1-3 were available years before it was commonly accepted that he took steroids and many people ignored the signs, amendmently defending him, stating that it was because he was a workout machine and had amazing genetics and talent.
Personally I don’t believe that everyone is on steroids (I think this line we draw between legal and illegal performance enhancers is both fuzzy and a little silly) and I don’t want to call anyone out who busted his ass (no pun intended) to get in the shape he’s in, but I also believe that given the ease of access, prevalence in other sports, lack of accurate testing, and advantages that many illegal PEDs give that fighters would be almost crazy not to at least try them.
But cyph is right...
a “blanket statement” is not completely fair or accurate. However, I think its trending towards being more accurate than less accurate in the current athletic climate. Unfortunately it will take away from the honest and fair accomplishments of those that didn’t cheat, but these sports have done themselves in by allowing the cheating and shadiness to run rampant just because it sated the mainstream appetite and demand of fans and media.
Look at body builders… the guys from the 50’s, to the 70s, to the 90s… it’s unholy really, how much they bulked up.
Regardless of genetics or how hard you work, there are limits to how ripped you can get without outside aid. Nutrition, better training, sure… but you don’t go from Steve Reeves being the buffest dude on earth: 
to this
Without steroids. It’s just not humanly possible to get that big without chemical aid. When every other sport has shown a similar growth pattern and world records breaking every 6 months you don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this stuff out.
And hey, more power to em. I don’t care.
You don't know what you are talking about
Why are you comparing bodybuilding to MMA???
It is way way way way way different.
See, this is the problem with “roid haters.” They completely ignore everything else and say steroids allowed them to do this or that. These type of bodybuilders are GENETICALLY ELITE FOR WHAT THEY DO. They put on muscle with ease. A lot of them become bigger than 99% of the population after a year or two of lifting BEFORE THEY EVEN JUICE UP. A TON of these guys are myostatin deficient or they it is repressed big time (this is a fact, a study was done on the top IFBB guys and it was true).
Is that second guy juiced up? Hell yes. Is every top NPC competitor and IFBB pro juiced to the gills? Yes, and not just with steroids. Steroids were around and legal during the Oliva, Arnold, Zane era. Get past that, and you are entering a whole other drug regime. The world of IGF, insulin, HGH, and shit you don’t even want to know about.
Juice is not magic. TONS of people you don’t know are juicing are and look like total shit. Most juicers don’t get anything out of it because they are retarded. Like the idiots who pop for nandrolene (sp?) and boldedone (sp?). These two roids stay in yours sytem for MONTHS. they obviously aren’t educating themselves and are obviously just going down to the corner and getting some roids from some mexican.
Of course body building is a different sport.
My point was that when you look at other sports and see the same pattern of massive bulkage, not necessarily MMA, it becomes hard to believe that its just nutrition and training that took athletes from being fairly normal looking dudes to the point where they wouldn’t look out of place standing next to Reeve’s with their shirt off at their walking around weight.
I don’t think its as prevalent in MMA as it is in other sports, and I’m not trying to say it is. But some people seem to be trying to argue that it isn’t common AT ALL, which I think is probably bullshit.
Did you know that people have gained on average ONE whole foot taller in the last 100 years (this is average, and we’re not even talking about the outliers)? Did you know that Americans are getting bigger and heavier than ever in the last 25 years? Did you know that big and tall men and women tend to marry big and tall spouses, thus spawning big and tall kids?
With the improvement in nutrition, better prenatal care, abundance of food, and big and tall genes mixed together, within a generation, the offspring will have a tendency to become bigger, healthier, and stronger than their parents. People are just getting bigger.
The pay of 25 years ago was also very small compared to the pays of today’s sports. When the pay is higher, there tends to be a bigger pool of individuals who wants to join that profession. With a bigger pool to choose from, the elite of that pool will tend to be the biggest, fastest, and most talented.
You’re comparing athletes of 30-50 years ago when sports were a fringe profession. Athletes had to work part time in the off season to make ends meet. You’re comparing athletes back then when proper nutritions were relatively unknown, the average general population were much smaller, to the athletes of today. The athletes of 30 years ago wouldn’t be able to compete on the same field today. Out of 300 million people, you don’t think that the best of the best continues to get better, quicker, stronger, taller, faster?
by cyph on Oct 29, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Couple things
I think the average height has grown by about 4 inches in the last 100 years and the low starting average in the 1900s can be partially attributed to the influx of shorter European immigrants. Also Americans are indeed heavier over the last 25 years but its not increased muscle mass that is causing that weight increase.
People do tend to mate with other people of like genetic makeup. I believe its called assortative mating, and it does indeed affect the genetic characteristics of the child so that is definitely a factor in producing outliers.
As far as the pay argument goes I think the pay of 25 years ago in the major sports is comparable to the pay of MMA today, so I personally don’t believe we have scratched the surface of MMA from an athletic potential standpoint.
While athletes do indeed improve over time the rate at which they have improved has been significantly greater than normal over the past 25-30 years.
I also don’t want to come off as negative towards your post, I agree to a certain extent then advances in athletics can be explained by training, nutrition and genetics. I just wanted to clear up the facts a little bit so we can continue the discussion with the best information possible. Please feel free to correct me if you have more accurate numbers.
Very valid points cyph.
However, and I could be wrong here, but it is the opinion of some doctors who specialize in this sort of thing that Steve Reeves physique is pretty much the best humans can achieve naturally (as far as bodybuilding goes).. Sure, people are taller, but they are taller because they aren’t malnourished, its not genetics. Breast size in Japanese women is getting bigger too, b/c they are eating more fatty western foods.
I don’t think evolution explains the leap from Mantle to Bonds. Bit fast for that. And they obviously are getting stronger and faster… which is kind of my point. I think you’re kidding yourself if you think the human race has evolved so much that we’ve shaved 1 second off our 100m dash in under 100 years, especially at a time when more people are sitting in cubicles commenting on websites all day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Record_progression_100_m_men
The 100m dash records used to stand for 6-15 years at a stretch. Then boom, every year or two, three at most, new world record. Purely coincidence that 3 of those records were tainted by bad drug tests.
I guess it could be the Air Jordans or the emergence of the all natural superman.
Reasons they’re getting better:
(1) better training
(2) better physiques
(3) better technology (clothing alone can shave on seconds)
Nothing in the world progression show anything shady there. .7 seconds off within 65 years. Then .36 seconds in 45 years. So athletes today with better training, physique, and technology improved by 1 second within the last 100 years? There’s nothing here that would make me think that cheating and juicing is the only reason for producing these feats. I highly doubt that an average runner, even with the help of steroid could beat Usain Bolt or run faster by 1 second.
Why not choose the simplest explanation to explain a phenomenon? If you see the report of the moon landing, do you conclude (a) we actually landed on the moon, or (b) the US government spent billions to trick people into thinking they landed on the moon?
BTW, breast size is based on genetics and not nutrition. You can make your boobs gain fat but you can’t make it increase a cup size through eating. That’s a fact. Here is another situation where you see something and you make a jump in conclusion that is faulty. The culture of Japan has gradually changed since the MacArthur constitution. Women are less subservient to men and couples dating and choosing their own mates are on the rise. Men, naturally, tend to gravitate toward women with big boobs and good looks. Voila, within a two or three generations, kids of the elites tend to be more beautiful with bigger boobs.
If you think that eating well can make kids of 5 foot tall, flat chested p arents become 6 foot tall with DD boobs, then I don’t know what to tell you. You can’t argue something you have no knowledge of.
by cyph on Oct 29, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Voila, within a two or three generations, kids of the elites tend to be more beautiful with bigger boobs.”
Which is why I had the best four years of my life at the University of Southern California.
So its not changes in nutrition at all, its an ultra fast genetic change into two generations?
Ok, we’re both pretty damn clueless here, but I’m going to go ahead and call bullshit. The environment has a major effect on genetic expression, and putting kids in a high protein high fat diet for a few generations isn’t going to produce a race of fantastic genetic badasses in 3 generations.
1 second is a loooong time in the 100 meter dash. The human race has gotten 9.5% faster in a hundred years, and your proposing a the emergence of a new genetic elite that just happened to emerge at the same time that billions of people diets changed radically.
I’m proposing better training methods, more money, more knowledge, and more performance enhancing drugs.
I think my explanation is simpler. And no, I’m not saying that you could take the average joe athlete, pump him full of HGH and turn him into an olympic caliber athlete. I’m saying that you take an olympic caliber athlete, give him some PED’s, and watch him do it a little bit better.
I just watch the Olympics and watch world records getting dropped in heats, then beaten again during the actual race, and the massive anti-doping efforts … it’s pretty hard for me not to think that this is pretty common behavior, especially when everyone from high school athletes on up are getting caught doing it on a regular basis.
I agree. Not only are we making better training and nutritional programs, but we are studying what conditions make a track or swimming pool faster for the racers. Michael Phelps broke all those world records as much because he was wearing a barely legal swimsuit that actively decreases drag and was swimming in a swimming pool that eliminated almost all the turbulence as he did by being a great swimmer. He was obviously the best swimmer at this olympics, but would he have been better than Spitz if Spitz had the same technological advantages in his day?
Fact: Athletes in the Olympics are getting faster.
Fact: Athletes are drug tested in the Olympics.
Conclusion 1: After 100 years, a combination of genetics, nutrition, training, and technology enables them to become faster than their predecessor 100 years ago
or
Conclusion 2: They are using drugs because there is no way human beings today can be better than human beings 100 years ago.
I can’t argue with your logic anymore, toxic. You win.
You’re pretty obviously lying. There’s no way anyone can be thinner than Roy Nelson without being on steroids.
by Richard Wade on Oct 29, 2008 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m saying that evolution really doesn’t move that fast, especially on sports, which don’t really impact your chances of survival.
If you’re a buff guy who can run the 100 in 10.5, you’re probably going to get as much tail as a dude who can do it 10.4. Evolution over half a century is a pretty implausible explanation compared to them taking a wee bit of juice.
And I’m not saying everyone is on drugs, especially illegal ones. But damn man, how many people have to fail tests to figure this out? How many organizations have to half ass their drug testing policy?
Dude, you obviously have no clue how the science works. Nobody is saying anything about evolution. You see any of these runners growing extra legs? You’re confused, my man.
It’s not all human evolution, it’s also evolution of the sport and the training and nutrition.
It’s not likely that 95% of NFL players are on steroids, but it is likely that 95% of them have been lifting weights properly since they were in high school, that’s why they’re so big.
You don’t have to evolve to run faster, but the fact that wind tunnel technology has evolved, that’s going to make it easier for runners to find the fastest method of running, which can save off the hundredths of a second needed in that sport.
It’s ignorant to think that everyone that tests clean is clean, but it’s just as ignorant to think that everyone that tests clean is dirty.
You've gotta be living in a god damned dream world...
to continue to try to say that most of these leaps and bounds progressions are being made by training, “selective breeding” and nutrition.
I’m sorry if you want to continue to banter on about those things in the face of massive amounts of cheating that’s sitting right in front of your face, so be it.
There’s a reason there’s such a furor over PED use from junior high school right up to the pros and Olympics. Was the whole BALCO scandal not a big enough eye opener for you? ELITE athletes, as in World Record holding athletes – thought to be the best of their respective sports and at the top of their game – revealed as nothing more than walking human lab rats. The only reason they were ever caught was because of a disgruntled employee. The Tour de France, once thought of as the pinnacle test of human endurance had the curtain pulled away to reveal a tour de farce. Baseball had half of their stars of the last era testifying before Congress shamed by Jose Canseco.
That’s just the tip of the iceburg. Not to mention league testing policies and anemic AC’s with little knowledge of anything running tests with holes in them so big people just continue to walk right through them.
But please, continue on to talk about tall people having children with tall people and taking creatine. That clearly explains the MASSIVE leaps in athlete size, strength, speed, performance across all levels and minimal amounts of cheating are going on. The drug culture of sports is beyond a well-known fact and reality, the sooner you face it and stop trying to pretend like mma is some untainted, saintly, warrior vs. warrior parable that transcends the “evils” involved in other sports the better we’ll all be.
"The Tour de France, once thought of as the pinnacle test of human endurance had the curtain pulled away to reveal a tour de farce."
The Tour de France’s testing would cripple any other sports league. They are one of the cleanest competitions you will find.
by Richard Wade on Oct 30, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
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