5 Post UFC 90 Thoughts
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2008 8:11 AM EDT
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1. Patrick Cote did not impress. Yes, he lasted to the third round, but lasting three rounds against a guy who is not employing his full range of skills while doing nothing of note yourself is not impressive. Every time Silva engaged he caught Cote with shots. Not getting knocked out is not a "win."
2. There IS a precedent for TKO's due to injury. These aren't directly MMA cases but they are boxing which commissions genearlly handle such situations the same. Last February Jesus Chavez's knee gave out without being punched and was counted out, a similar situation happened in January of last year as well when Jameel McCline went down with a knee injury without being punched. BE commenter Zocalo posted a rule about accidental injuries in the comments of the live thread which said that in early rounds the fight is a technical draw, in the later rounds it goes to the judges scorecards. This is the case in an accidental injury caused by a foul, this was a different situation. A fighter's knee giving out is not an "accident" as SC (BadLeftHook's editor in chief) stated "If a body part gives out, that’s not an accident. That’s your body failing you." Had the fighter continued to the end of the round and retired on his stool because of the knee injury it would be a TKO, it is no different in the case of an injury occurring in the course of the fight.
3. I have been severely underrating Thiago Alves. Yes, Josh Koscheck made a bad decision in not going balls out for takedowns and instead staying standing where he had next to no chance of getting the victory...but Alves had the gas to go hard for the full three rounds, was explosive when he engaged and was able to avoid takedowns with ease. While I'd still pick GSP were they to meet, it would be a lot harder for me to do so than it was 48 hours ago.
4. The UFC heavyweight division is deep but is not very clear. Mir, Nogueira, Couture, Lesnar, Carwin, Velazquez, Werdum and now Dos Santos. It may not be a list of the top 10 in the world but there is a VERY bright future. The unfortunate thing for Werdum is that he isn't exactly "over" with the fans so he got a deserved title shot pushed off, then lost out on making the 4 man title tournament. There was a definate feeling of "trap fight" when the Dos Santos matchup was made and it only took a minute, twenty-one seconds for that to be proven as the case. There are the top four guys in the tournament and then no real clear hierarchy below. It's time to start matching the next tier of guys against each other to clear the picture up. Either way the weakest division in the organization has a lot of bright days in its future.
5. Sean Sherk is in Rich Franklin territory. ..and BJ Penn is his Anderson Silva. As long as Penn is on top of the 155 division Sherk doesn't have much of a shot of being champion. But that being said, I don't know that there are a lot of guys that can beat Sherk at 155. Sean gets a lot of crap for "paint by numbers" boxing, but that isn't the case anymore. Sherk showed dynamic combinations and his technique has advanced past "pre-programmed boxing." I'm just not sure where there is for Sherk to fit in to the divisional picture.
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Totally agree about Sherk
Although he seems to enjoy the boxing aspect a little more than he should. If he figures out how to make his wrestling more dangerous with his striking rather then using one or the other I think he can give B.J. a really good fight.
LW division is weak?
When you have King Kong at the top of his game on the mountaintop you can hardly say that the rest of the division is weak.
I'm with you
Patrick Cote acting all excited about going into round 3 with Anderson Silva was sort of pathetic. I’m Canadian and I was hoping he’d do great. His celebrating the fact is is like me celebrating someone treating me to a meal at Mcdonalds. At the end of the meal, you just ate Mcdonalds.
And after watching Alves Kos, I’m really excited about GSP Alves. Holy cow has this guy improved. I haven’t seen the John Fitch fight, but those leg kicks were insane. I couldn’t believe how fast he got his hips over and how much power he delivered. I’d love to see a rematch with Fitch and a fight against GSP is going to be awesome.
Shane Carwin vs Junior Dos Santos – possible amazing stand up but the only draw back is that Dos Santos has no ground game, which blows my mind that Werdum never tried to take him down.
Velazquez vs Kongo – great stand up fight, just have to wait for Kongo to get healthy
and once Gonzaga destroys Hendriks… Gonzaga vs Herring – Both men have faced their share of disappointing loses in the UFC, but I think Gonzaga can pull this one out and be on the fast track again to the title shot.
by Tra Telligman's Pec on Oct 26, 2008 10:31 PM EDT reply actions
you know...
i forgot all about Kongo and Gonzaga which is me falling victim to the loss of hype surrounding them.
What I did NOT like from Santos was that he didn’t snap any of his punches really until he landed the uppercut. The jabs and straights were just push punches with no real snap. But then…BAM! So we’ll have to see what he shows us going forward.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 26, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree completely,
Dos Santos did not seem to have much going on until he walked across the ring with that uppercut loaded up & then knocked Werdums ears off.
Shane Carwin vs Junior Dos Santos – possible amazing stand up but the only draw back is that Dos Santos has no ground game, which blows my mind that Werdum never tried to take him down.
Fight only lasted 1:20 :)
Good roundup
Re: Zocalo’s rule: Even by the rules of boxing, this would have been ruled a TKO because it was in the “later rounds” considering that the bout was scheduled for 5, at least that seems to be the conclusion Mythbuster and I came to here.
Also: You don’t need to go to boxing to find a similar situation. What about Diaz vs. Gambaryan TUF finale 5:
Diaz wins by injury (dislocated shoulder) at :20 of round two.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
I thought about that...
and Frank Shamrock but those came at an “active moment” as opposed to Manny shooting in or Frank taking a blocked kick. I think the Ken Shamrock fight where he was forced to retire because he was suffering from chest pains, irregular heartbeat…etc. is more along the same lines. It wasn’t because he took a shot or anything, his body gave out.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 26, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Which fight was that?
The Fujita fight? That was just bad conditioning, and I’d hate to see a NC because a fighter wussed out. At this point, I don’t believe anything Ken Shamrock says about his supposed injuries.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 26, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...the Fujita fight...
I completely buy that there were legitimate issues in that fight.
But regardless..it was a loss for a “physical issue”
Anyway…I think we’re in agreement on the fact that last night was a legitimate TKO.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 26, 2008 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
My rule on NC
A NC should be called if:
1) An illegal blow causes an injury that stops the fight (Nog vs. Fedor, accidental headbutt)
2) The referee causes an injury (not happened yet, but Mergliota could do it, and Big John has come close)
Everything else is fair game. If a dude can’t fight because his body gives out, either from stepping wrong or conditioning, it’s a TKO.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 26, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Frank Shamrock?
His arm got shattered from repeated kicks. That’s like Silvia getting his arm broken in an arm bar. If we go down that road, we’re going to have NC’s everytime somebody doesn’t tap and “snaps” or “naps.”
The Manny fight is the closest analogy. That’s one fight that maybe I could see an NC, since it was clearly not caused by strikes from the other fighter. That said, I stand by the opinion that TKO is preferable because otherwise it’s a slippery slope.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 26, 2008 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
you're...
arguing exactly what I said. It came in the course of getting struck….which is why I didn’t use it in the article.
But there are plenty of other injuries while going for shots like the Manny fight, hell…Kerr KO’ed himself going for a shot. I’m not disagreeing with you at all on this…so I’m not sure why you seem on the defensive here.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 26, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Not being defensive
sorry if it came off that way.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 26, 2008 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it has to be the 4th or 5th round to go to the scorecards in title fights in MMA.
The Lawler/Smith eye poke on CBS happened in the 3rd and it was a No contest.
That is an illegal hit by the other fight. This doesn’t contradict the rule:
TKO if injury not cause by the other fight in the later rounds.
NC if injury was accidentally caused by the other fighter in an illegal manner.
You said something about the later rounds.
The rounds don’t matter if it’s an injury like Cote had, if you get injured like that in the first 10 seconds of the fight you lose.
If you get injured by an accidental foul in the later rounds, they go to the scorecards. That’s how they do it in boxing, and since they have the same scoring system, I don’t see why it would be any different.
1. If a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts is stopped because of an accidental foul, the referee shall determine whether the unarmed combatant who has been fouled can continue or not. If the unarmed combatant’s chance of winning has not been seriously jeopardized as a result of the foul and if the foul did not involve a concussive impact to the head of the unarmed combatant who has been fouled, the referee may order the contest or exhibition continued after a recuperative interval of not more than 5 minutes. Immediately after separating the unarmed combatants, the referee shall inform the Commission’s representative of his determination that the foul was accidental.
2. If the referee determines that a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts may not continue because of an injury suffered as the result of an accidental foul, the contest or exhibition must be declared a no contest if the foul occurs during:
(a) The first two rounds of a contest or exhibition that is scheduled for three rounds or less; or
(b) The first three rounds of a contest or exhibition that is scheduled for more than three rounds.
3. If an accidental foul renders an unarmed combatant unable to continue the contest or exhibition after:
(a) The completed second round of a contest or exhibition that is scheduled for three rounds or less; or
(b) The completed third round of a contest or exhibition that is scheduled for more than three rounds,
Ê the outcome must be determined by scoring the completed rounds and the round during which the referee stops the contest or exhibition.
4. If an injury inflicted by an accidental foul later becomes aggravated by fair blows and the referee orders the contest or exhibition stopped because of the injury, the outcome must be determined by scoring the completed rounds and the round during which the referee stops the contest or exhibition.
3’s in there by not lined up right.
Don’t blame me, blame the NSAC, I just copied and pasted it. I couldn’t make that E with the hat that doesn’t make any sense if I tried.
I’m hesitant to lump Dos Santos into the bright stars crowd with only one knock out of a ground fighter.
But that's the thing...
I wasn’t really pointing to him as a “star” but he is a prospect and does fit somewhere into the landscape. I skipped a lot of other guys that also would fit in (Herring, Kongo, Gonzaga..etc) but the point is…there is a real “division” forming here. And since Dos Santos’ win happened last night he got included. I’m not sure where he fits in yet either. From what I know he doesn’t have a great ground game, doesn’t throw all of his punches with conviction and has only about 90 seconds of time in the UFC. I’m just saying that he fits in SOMEWHERE…
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 26, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Not yet
That uppercut was sort of lucky in that Wedum bowed his head right into it. I’m not saying the win was lucky, I just hesitate in using that as an illustration of what he’s capable of. I could potentially beat one of these guys if I threw a leg kick right as the dude bent over into my approaching shin. Okay maybe not, but you get my drift.
Still don’t get how so many people slept on Cigano. He’s a fierce striker. I’ve seen some of his fights and to put it mildly, he lulls you into a false sense of safehood by just pushing his punches out there. Right when you think you have him timed, he’ll do something like he did last night. He’ll land a huge shot with a ton of snap behind it because he’s lulled you into thinking he can’t do that. I’d like to see him get the loser of the Mir/Nogueira fight. Probably going to be Mir. He’d easily dispose of Mir due to his superior striking and smarts. Cigano really is a force. He’s working on his ground game and is a Purple Belt under the Nogueira’s, I believe. He’s only been training in jiu-jitsu for about four years, I believe. And from what I’ve heard, he’s actually close to earning his Brown Belt. Don’t know how true that is, though.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on Oct 26, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
So the pushing was a ruse?
Cool gameplan – it could bait other fighters so long as he doesn’t get tagged himself.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 26, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The man has an iron chin. I’ve seen him take some shots and just walk through them. And even though Werdum was the heavier fighter, he was not the stronger of the two. Cigano’s takedown defense is also pretty underrated. That was the key to this fight for me. In the clinch, it was all about the takedown defense of Cigano. If he was able to at least shrug off one attempt early on, he’d win. And he did. There was one time where Werdum clinched with him and kinda attempted a takedown but Cigano shoved him aside. At that point, I think Werdum knew he was in for a real fight. And for Cigano to finish Werdum is a testament to Cigano’s power. Look at Werdum’s career and the strikers (and fighters) he’s been in there with. He was the first (and only) man to finish Werdum. The guy deserves some major freaking props.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on Oct 26, 2008 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
in defense of Sokoudjou
He took out 3 guys who had been perennially ranked in the top 10 — Little Nog, Arona and Nakamura. I think its more an indicator of how good Cane and Machida are.
If Sok could be fed a steady stream of grapplers like Babalu, Tito, etc he’d look like God.
I’m with you on Alves. I gotta eat some crow on that one too because I always thought Alves was sort of overrated. Now that I saw that fight, I’d have to say that he is a much improved fighter since he lost to Fitch. He’d give GSP a tougher fight than I originally thought. That being said, GSP would still take it. I also think Koscheck needs to re-evaluate his desire to just stand and bang. He frequently ignores his greatest strength which is the wrestling in favor of being exciting.
As for Cote, the only thing Cote did for me in that fight was actually prove his chin is made of granite. He’s not like GSP where he learns and evolves leaps and bounds. I think he’s probably close to reaching his plateau of abilities, if he hasn’t already done so. It was clear Silva was the much better striker, all clowning aside.
I don’t see how you say Kos ignored his wrestling and that he was trying to work his stand up game. He shot quite a few times and Alves displayed SICK defensive wrestling and strength to keep from being taken down. Did you see that limp leg escape? That was high level stuff right there.
I’m not convinced AT ALL that GSP can #1 get Alves down #2 keep him down and #3 do enough damage on the ground to win rounds. Furthermore I don’t think he can outstrike Alves. I think Alves can pull it out if he has 5 rounds of gas.
Cos got Alves down 1-2 times but couldnt keep him there. If GSP gets him there, that’s where he will stay.
my 2c
That's why it'll be a money main event...
IMHO, Alves look more like the prototypical MMA champ, more so than GSP because of his crisp and vicious striking.
TKO?
The Cote TKO is kinda (but no really) similar to Anthony Johnson v. Kevin Burns eye poke.
Because Mazagatti didn’t see/call the illegal strike and Rumble couldn’t continue due to his own physical problem, Burns was awarded the TKO.
Completely agree with the other points you raised!
Burns getting the win in that case was the complete wrong call. They even had a chance to overturn it and failed to do so. As others have said this is more of a grey area, since Silva didn’t do anything to cause the injury but was ahead on the cards.
by Chris Nelson on Oct 27, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
NSAC said they couldn’t do anything about it and if that’s the case they need to look at changing the rules they operate under as it regards situations like that. A missed call is a missed call, they are going to happen and that’s why NSAC needs the power to act in those situations. You can’t really blame them for not being able to act on it but it is a situation that needs to be addressed for the future.
If Cote didn’t impress than what the hell did Silva do?, I think alot of people are looking really stupid for saying that Patrick had no chance against Anderson and are trying way too hard to put him down.
I don't think Silva impressed either...
That being said Cote is acting as though going 3 rounds is some sort of major moment. It wasn’t. Silva was not overly impressive either, and I never said he was.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2008 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s like watching Michael Jordan dribble circles around a guy and never atcually shoot the ball for an entire quarter. Or maybe atcually hit a few 3 pointers right in his face and that’s it.
Anderson never turned it on, never exploded and threw a flurry and then did the matrix dodge while Cote threw punches then finished him like he has with guys in the past.
You did see the Dan Henderson fight right? Olympian Dan Henderson. The Pride champ in 2 divisions. Right? Anderson was unimpressed with Cote, and tired to put on a show for the fans and give them their money’s worth before KOing him.
If Serra can tap GSP due to strikes Cote could KO Silva, but in 1000 fights that happens 1 time for each guy, and it wasn’t going to happen last night.
I think you are spot on. I was convinced Alves will compete with GSP after the Hughes fight. Again, after watching a wrestler like Kos be unable to take him down for 3 rounds I was even more impressed. I think Alves will be champ one day. Maybe not this year, but very possibly by next.
Sherk, shees you nailed it again with the Franklin comment. I’ve felt t his way for awhile. With any luck, BJ will beat GSP (I dobut it) and move up to 170 and LW will be pretty damn wide open. Sherk is much more beatable than BJ is. Hopefully Eddie Alvarez will be here soon to shake up the division.
Cote v Silva, it’s over no rematch plz. That is all.
Disagree about Sherk
Yes, his boxing is improved, but how much help is that going to be when he has some of the shortest arms in the division?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
that is an issue...
I’m not saying that I WANT him to spend entire fights striking. But when he does he has more legit skills than the by-the-numbers stuff.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m just saying: he can work on his striking until the cows come home, but striking with BJ will ALWAYS be a mistake for him.
Of course, if he laid off the sauce for a while and dropped to 145…. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Cote
I think people are being a bit quick to crap all over Patrick Cote. I think we saw two fighters that respected each others power a little too much. I don’t think it is a stretch that Silva’s gameplan was to be unpredictable and stay out of the fire (because Cote does have one punch knockout power). What we saw was Anderson Silva fighting not to lose instead of fighting to win.
As far as Cote goes I believe he would have had a chance at any point up until the last round. And more importantly- it is impressive that he made it three rounds with Silva. Even though Cote took some huge shots he dished out a few of his own (when Silva quit running away). Look what happened to James Irvin- he took one giant shot to the face and it was over. Rich Franklin took a bit more punishment collectively but he only lasted one round (and a half) twice.
Cote may not be the next Anderson Silva, or Rich Franklin for that matter. But he deserved to be in there and deserves respect for getting in there with a serial killer and staying upright.
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