Who Is the Best Pound-for-Pound Fighter in the World?
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 4:03 PM EDT
121 comments
Fronted by Kid Nate.
Over in the Dana Hearts Brock post, we're having a discussion about the best pound-for-pound fighter and what that distinction really means. I figured I'd put up a fanpost if people want to discuss this aspect of the post.
The part of the original post that triggered by interest was this:
And White refused to acknowledge the Russian as the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet until he competes in the UFC.
I don't think that Fedor can be considered the best p4p even if he beat Brock and Randy. Here's why:
I don’t see how anybody can think Fedor is the best “pound-for-pound”—heavyweight, maybe, but not pound-for-pound. The dude weighs a ton, and his skill is nowhere near the level of Anderson Silva.
The “pound-for-pound” distinction is supposed to level the playing field for different weight classes. I’ve seen nothing in Fedor suggesting he’s as skilled as Anderson Silva or even BJ Penn.
Dropkick101 takes issue with my ruling out Fedor:
How can you say you’ve “seen nothing in Fedor” to suggest he’s as skilled as those two? This sport is fighting – and Fedor does it extremely well. He neutralizes the world class skills of his opponents and does whatever he wants to do – often times winning spectacularly.
DirtyML makes an interesting point:
I’d give the P4P belt to a lighter weight class than heavy just because of the natural body mass index for athletes across world there will be more at lighter weights which means more diversified competition.
So what do we mean when we say "the best p4p fighter in the world"? What qualifications should be used in making this distinction? It's obviously a fantasy, because there's no way to test lighter guys against heavier guys, but that just makes it all the more important to clearly lay out the terms.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Few Thoughts
First of all, Fedor does not weigh “a ton.” Brock Lesnar ways a ton. Fedor weighs like 230 or something like that. Fuck, Anderson Silva walks around near that. He just happens to be accustomed to cutting weight handily and participating in lower weight classes – which is advantageous to Silva if anything because of the weight he puts back on by fight time.
To say his skill is not near Silva is silly as well. Anderson is the more technical striker, that’s obvious. But how well did that go for Cro Cop, who is arguably MORE technical than Silva, who throws flying knees and spinning backfists – exciting, yes, but technically practical, no. On the ground, I think Fedor remains the superior grappler. He doesn’t hold a fancy “jiu jitsu black belt” like Silva does (not to discredit his belt) but Emelianenko is an undisputed sambo and judo champion who has been grappling much longer than Anderson has.
I also would like to give me interpretation of “pound-for-pound.” I don’t think lighter fighters should be favored simply because of that. I don’t think heavier fighters should be favored simply because they’d beat up a lightweight. It should be considered without regard to weight at all. What should be looked at is what has been shown in their fights – talent, athleticism, technicality, heart and power. Every fighter has different combinations of these things. In my mind, however, I think Fedor has the most complete profile without reference to size.
by KneeToTheFace on Oct 23, 2008 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Additionally
Silva has very incomplete wrestling ability which has been demonstrated in a few of his fights. Fedor, on the other hand, made folk like Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman look like amateurs – AND they were roided up.
by KneeToTheFace on Oct 23, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has that actually been confirmed?
Not that I know a more plausible explanation to the Hammerhouse vs. Chute Boxe pit fight that erupted at Pride 31 than unbridled roid-rage but, from what I understand, that be just a rumor.
Either way, GSP has consistently fought and dominated the best competition in the world in a much tougher weightclass. On top of being a more complete fighter.
by Rundownloser on Oct 23, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman can be shown as symptomatic with the problem of judging Fedor: he looks great, but to a large degree he’s fighting mediocre competition. Randleman and Coleman have never truly moved beyond their wrestling roots, for example. Hunt’s ground game sucks. Nogueira has elite skills, but he’s really not terribly athletic in comparison to a lot of other fighters in the division. Sylvia’s primary ability is his reach. Cro Cop has no ground game.
The degree of quality talent drops like a rock above 220, which is one reason why Fedor looks so great: many of the fighters he fights, guys who are near the top of the division, simply aren’t that skilled, athletic, or both.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think
that Fedor was not roided up? Just because you are not shredded like those guys does not mean you are not doing it. I am not believing that anyone in Pride was not doing it. Look at Shogun & Wandy since they left. They cannot fight at anywhere near the level they were before
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask Keith Jardine
what level Wanderlei is fighting at these days.
by Kid Nate on Oct 23, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True,
but anyone can be caught. What about Shogun, did he look like the same fighter against Forrest? If Wandy faced Chuck back in Pride, do you think that he would have fought the same way?
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun was also fighting with a shredded knee. Take it from someone whos been there, athletic competition and torn ACL do not go together. Not only is it a physical barrier, but its a mental barrier.
Given the above, I wouldn’t be so quick to judge Shogun considering he was fighting the guy who is now the LH champion of the world.
by Day Man on Oct 23, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not remember Wanderlei, while in Pride, commenting before a fight that “I will do my best, put on a good show for my fans.” In those days, he came out like he was going knock his opponents head, eat their heart & rape & pillage their entire family.
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steroids are also used for treating injuries and physical therapy. Fedor has been sidelined several times because of hand injuries, which should not be a problem if he used anabolics. Consider Wand, who fought many times each year – to fight and train at that level without nagging injuries (which I don’t remember him having, but correct me if needed) is suspicious.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 23, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on your last statement, but I am not ready to clear anyone that fought in Pride as it seems almost that it was encouraged from previous fighters’ statements.
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
Fedor’s hand injuries would not really benefit to a great degree from the use of steroids. The recovery effect of steroids would not help with broken hands/dislocated thumbs…all of the other things we’ve heard about fedor’s hand. If we’re talking about muscular injuries then yes…but not so much what you’re talking about.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and for what it's worth...
I’m not suggesting that Fedor is/was on steroids by any means
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If one takes out of consideration all of the fighters outside of the top 15 at the time they fought Fedor is on a winning streak of at least 11 against top level opponents (and that’s not even considering his time spent at rings).
Despite not fighting enough and a few lesser opponents here and there that’s impressive and enough for me to see him as the best pound for pound.
Silva, against top competition, is on a streak of 6 at the most, GSP is up to 4, therefore I have to say Fedor. If he beats another top five opponent in Arlovski there can be no doubt.
P4P should be considered regardless of weight, be that those in lighter or heavier weight classes.
by nidge on Oct 23, 2008 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So does Sylvia the walking vagina
knocking Arlovski out twice rank him higher? Uhh, exactly. There are not many, any true top heavies out there right now.
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he knocked him out once and beat him in a 5-round snooze fest where both were afraid to initiate exchanges.
by Estrada on Oct 23, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright then,
And that supports the argument how?
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anderson Silva
He gets my vote…not only has he fought some of the best competition in the world in the past 2 years. He has stopped every single one of his opponents inside of about 8 minutes while taking minimal damage. Franklin(2X), Henderson, and Marquardt are all top ten…with Franklin/Hendo being top 5 at the time Silva destroyed them.
http://mma4real.net/
by Tha Realness on Oct 23, 2008 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Silva just seems pretty damn unstoppable, he is still fighting anyone they put in front of him, and as you point out – he easily destroyed the previous UFC champion (more than once), and the former Pride champion.
by mythbuster on Oct 23, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In terms of raw talent, I think Penn is the best – he has more natural fighting gifts than anyone else. He hasn’t always made the most of them, unfortunately, which is why I don’t think he can be #1.
I also think Fedor is more skilled than Silva, but his lack of meaningful competition recently would disqualify him. Rickson hasn’t had meaningful competition lately either, so no one mentions him at the top.
GSP has shown mental weakness that haunt his fighting career – here’s to hoping they go away. Both losses were due to his mind game than his physical abilities.
I personally have it Silva, Fedor, GSP, Penn, Faber.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is a Fedor fan flooding the poll?
I’m thinking a Fedor fan may be hitting the vote button like a rat trying to get crack, cause it’s suddenly surging with more than a dozen Fedor votes every minute …
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did someone link this to the underground or is there really 220 people voting that are from this site?
by szucconi on Oct 23, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, it jumped by 50 in like 3 minutes. Something fishy is going on.
by szucconi on Oct 23, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shenanigans!
I call shenanigans!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 23, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone get out your broom handles.
by szucconi on Oct 23, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Fedor’s super strong ears over heard our key stokes
Being on the internet gives me a right...nay a responsibility to bitch about things
by beery_pbr on Oct 23, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, 10 Fedor fans can revote constantly just by clearing the cache.
by cyph on Oct 23, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to side with Dana on anything but...
Anderson has run through people since he entered the UFC. I realize that I am blinded by my failure to thoroughly research Fedor’s past fights, but I’ve seen Sylvia destroyed before and I am sure I will see it again.(Not to say it wasn’t impressive). I believe that domination is the first component of any pound 4 pound argument, but only when augmented by opponents abilities. Can anyone really argue that Tim Sylvia is a better heavy weight than Rich Franklin is middle weight. I love watching Fedor, but the Anderson’s utter and consistent domination of top tier talent may never be duplicated.
Being on the internet gives me a right...nay a responsibility to bitch about things
by beery_pbr on Oct 23, 2008 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
P4P
Fedor does’nt put his ass on the line enough to be the #1 p4p mma fighter. GSP,B.J., Faber and A. Silva are fighting the best fighters in their weight classes on a consistant basis. after beating Tim Sylvia, if Fedor goes on to beat Arlovski and Barnett in 09, then someone could make a good case for him to be #1. i guess fighting top contenders on a regular basis is more important to me than some people (going by the voting reults so far).
by bdw on Oct 23, 2008 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is definitely a tough argument to determine who is the best P4P fighter. Silva has four losses but has absolutely evolved into a nightmare for anyone he faces & annihilates them in devastating fashion. GSP started off strong, had a few mental lapses but now has definitely found that top gear that not many other people find. Faber has only lost once & it was early & has beat everyone put in front of him. Fedor a few years ago you could have definitely put him at the top, but once you stop consistently competing at the top level you kind of remove yourself from that argument. IMO, right now it would have to be Silva as he has finished every fight since he came in the UFC>
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fedor = P4P #1
because he’s really a “UFC LHW” that’s kicked ass at HW for years…
how the hell can Dana say “The dude weighs a ton”???? Seriously…that’s just pure BS from Dana…he knows he’s a small HW…typical Dana…
Who wins if Fedor cuts to 205 lbs (which he COULD do…he was 224 at Pride Real Deal with no cut of course) and fought Silva at 205 lbs? Give me Fedor…especially after he rolls Arlovksi…
“beery_pbr”…when has Tim Sylvia been dominated and stopped like he was with Fedor?? And how can you comment and at the same time admit to not knowing much about Fedor’s past??
by hankd on Oct 23, 2008 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For some reason the first 8 sec’s or the Sylvia vs Couture fight was in my head and I forgot it went to a decision. I was mistaken and I am sorry
Being on the internet gives me a right...nay a responsibility to bitch about things
by beery_pbr on Oct 24, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, this drives me a little crazy(ier), lol. I think the terminology needs to be defined. P4P does not mean who possesses the most skill per pound of body weight. P4P is a term coined for sake of argument, to give an opinion on who is the best fighter regardless of weight class. In other words, I think Brock would destroy Faber, but does that make him the best P4P? Of course not. Now if size, and accordingly strength/power, was taken out of the equation, Faber would destroy Brock.
So forgetting about size differences and just comparing skill sets, I would say BJ is the best. That is just my opinion, and it means absolutely nothing. If you took Fedor, GSP, Silva and BJ, somehow made them all 200 pounds and adjusted their height and strength and measurements to fit that form, I would pick BJ to win against all of them. However, if BJ just decides to bulk up his existing body and fight Silva at 185, i would pick Silva every time.
So again, it isn’t who could get to a certain weight class and fight someone who is naturally there, it is all things physical being equal, who is the best.
Just m.o., tear it apart!
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 23, 2008 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
But I do think you need to be consistently fighting the best in the world to be considered the best P4P and Fedor’s fight against Sylvia was the first time he had fought a top ten opponent since 2005.
by drano1 on Oct 23, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, the approximately 3 years prior to that was pretty weak for Fedor. Of course you can’t fight the best guy every time out, or your career will be very short, but fighting a top guy a couple times a year should be very attainable.
For the record, i see how any one of these 5, and perhaps a couple of others could be argued as the best P4P.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 23, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you don’t need to fight top 10 competition every outing but stepping into the ring with a middlewieght and then someone who had like 1 professional fight at the time kinda takes you out of the whole pound for pound argument think about it when kimbo was destroying guys on the internet no one here was calling him the pound for pound best. But I guess you can safely say that Fedor has fought some of the best and by the same token some of the worse.
by drano1 on Oct 23, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, don’t misunderstand me, I completely agree with you. While I don’t think the level of fighters fought in the past 12 months is the end all for the P4P argument, it certainly has to come in to play.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 23, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ!
Baby Jay is best pound for pound, I agree. He has amazing skills in all facets, stand-up is better than ever, and his submission defense is easily the best I have ever seen. Can not wait for St. Pierre- BJ 2. Only question for him has been conditioning, and he seems to be past that.
by tkired on Nov 3, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He needs to exhibit his supposed new found conditioning on a more consistent basis, or it has to be challenged more than his last two contests (he mashed up Stevenson w/ little resistance and Sherk never tested him with his reknowned wreslting/takedowns).
by Blackout612 on Nov 3, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor is the best. Can’t we just leave it at that?
No fighter has beaten the quality of fighters that he has, and he’s beaten some of the best to ever fight..multiple times.
by lbk on Oct 23, 2008 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Best currently
or when he was beating those guys?
by dnevil001 on Oct 23, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is no way anyone will ever just leave it at that
by drano1 on Oct 23, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No fighter has beaten the quality of fighters that he has, and he’s beaten some of the best to ever fight
Nog and … um… Herring? Or are you referring to CroCop? Fedor exposed his weakness – presure, and now everyone has used it effectively. That was neat, but something Randy does as well. Anyone else? Hunt? Naw, BJ’d smoke him. Coleman and Randleman are weak sauce, as is Goodridge (although that fights hilarious) so I don’t see where you’re coming from.
I HEART Fedor, just saying that his record’s actually kind of sad despite the high level of skills he’s displayed. He needs to fight Randy or Werdum, or even finish Nog, Arlovski’s softer than CroCop and Fedor’s gonna pressure cook him the same way.
by asa on Oct 24, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re talking about pound for pound, there should be a time window in which the level of competition can be encompassed. I have heard 3 years on some sites, 2 years on others. But take this into consideration, 3 years ago Anderson Silva wouldn’t even be in this debate, while Fedor would undoubtedly be the #1 p4p. Fast forward to 2008, Fedor has not even come close to the level of competition as Silva. This could change if Fedor would get off his ass. I’ll end with this question. How many Fedor fight have you actually enjoyed in the last 3 years?
by nitro on Oct 23, 2008 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fedor CLEARLY is the BEST
Fedor beat all the whose who in their PRIME. Fedor beat Nogueira TWICE when Nogueira was at his BEST and now Nogueira clearly fell off slightly. Nogueira himself said Fedor is unstoppable and the best. Fedor beat Cro Cop at his best and now Cro Cop scared to fight Fedor. The only 2 worthy fighters left for Fedor to fight are Arlovski and Barnett who are both Top 5 Heavyweights. Fedor is fighting Arlovski in Jan and than all thats left for Fedor is Barnett. Couture clearly stands no chance he’d get submitted no problem in the 1st round. Who else is Fedor supposed to fight to prove himself? Arlovski already took care of Werdum before he left UFC. Fedor is clearly in the most competitive and best Heavyweight division. UFC Heavyweight division is weak compared to Afflicition. When Fedor beats Arlovski and Barnett than Fedor’s resume is complete he beat them all. Anderson wont fight the top contender Filho so clearly we will NEVER know if Anderson is even the best Middleweight in the world. Instead Anderson fighting unranked non-worthy opponents like Cote and I say Cote knocks Anderson out Sat and puts an end to all this Anderson hype. Fedor has the best resume and is basically undefeated. BJ and GSP also have better resumes than Anderson.
by Dank456 on Oct 23, 2008 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to disagree with you, but theis no fighter that is CLEARLY the best. If there was, what would we have to talk about, lol??
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 23, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, “there is no”.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 23, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dank 456 needs to go back and read your original post about what P4P really means.
by drano1 on Oct 23, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Say Yes
I say yes there is. cause Anderson & BJ & GSP & Faber all have made mistakes in their career and lost. Fedor has been in dangerous situations in fights and always pulled through and won which is absolutely amazing. Unless somebody beats Fedor Fedor will CLEARLY remain the best. I don’t see how anybody can even argue with that at all. He beat a Top 10 Heavyweight Sylvia in 30 seconds. Fedor is about to fight Arlovski at his best. Than next would be Barnett and if Arlovski and Barnett cant stop Fedor there seriously is no other Heavyweight in the world that could stop Fedor.
by Dank456 on Oct 23, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see you rpoints and i don’t wholly disagree with them. However, i would say someone like GSP or even BJ has a tougher pool of opponents to go through.
In other words, fedor has beaten whoever is put in front of him, but beyond Barnett, Nog and CC it gets somewhat questionable, imo. Sylvia is good, but not great. Same goes for AA, who is one of my favorite fighters. Without getting more detailed, I hope you see my point.
In other words if you take the top ww’s ranked 7-12, they are pretty good. If you take the top 7-12 HW’s, tere are a tone of questions.
I have no problem with fedor being considered #1, but there are a tone of angles you need to look at, which is why, imo, there is no clear cut P4P winner, including my choice, BJ.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont see so. You got WWs like like Koscheck, Fitch, Sanchez, Serra, Alves and Karo ranked Top 10 who have all never accomplished anything big at all. Shields and Condit come into question cause they are not fighting nearly worthy and the best opponents out. Shields and Condit could be winless in UFC. Lightweights are even worse than WWs. But you got BJ beating some of the best lightweights and welterweights which is great. Altough BJ already lost to GSP but now its a whole new BJ and GSP at their best so i cant wait for their 2nd fight in Jan. There are tons of questions in every Top ranked fighters of all weightclasses cause alot of the fighters arent fighting the same level of competition. On Sherdog Serra is still ranked Top 10 for no reason except beating GSP once but everyone knows that would never happen again. The light heavyweight division is all messed up now too.
by Dank456 on Oct 24, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
The only 2 worthy fighters left for Fedor to fight are Arlovski and Barnett who are both Top 5 Heavyweights.
What about Couture?
I don’t consider Arlovski worthy. He got beat by Sylvia twice, and Fedor mauled Sylvia.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends which Arlovski
The killer Arlovski was my favorite fighter in his championship days. I had desperately wanted to see a Fedor/Arlovski fight back then. It was my dream fight, really. But with his subsequent struggles, and my aforementioned distaste with Fedor’s lack of competition, it is a less attractive fight (but still attractive, nonetheless).
Fink sent out a rant this morning about how Barnett, Couture and Arlovski are the only hills left for Fedor to climb. As though once he’s done with that, no one else would emerge as a contender.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Couture? If Couture beats Lesnar which i hope he does but i dont see him doing so cause Lesnar is too big and strong for Couture and their both wrestlers so clearly Lesnar has the advantage altough Couture has the experience. But lets says Couture wins which i really hope he does than he most likely gonna go at Nougeira and when Couture tries that wrestlin on Nougeira Couture gettin submitted easy. and Fedor destroys Nougeira when Nougiera was at his Best. Arlovski is at his best right now. since Arlovskis last loss to Sylvia Arlovski beat the hyped up “future” of the UFC Heavyweight division Werdum and he beat who was a Top 10 Heavyweight Rothwell and he beat the IFL Heavyweight champ. Arlovski is clearly better now than ever. Couture would get smashed by Fedor stand-up and ground especially since couture strength is the ground and Fedor clearly would have the bigger advantage on the ground AND standup. atleast Arlvoski has a chance with stand up and the only thing that stopped Barnett from being the best Heavyweight was Noguiera and Cro Cop when they where at their best. if Fedor beats Arlovski and Barnett clearly he’d be undisputed. fighting. in order for Couture to be a worthy opponent for Fedor hed haveta beat Lesnar AND Nougeira.
by Dank456 on Oct 23, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couture gettin submitted easy.
Um, I know he lost a long time ago, but have you seen him go against Jacare? Me thinks you might be counting someone out early. :)
by asa on Oct 24, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Mir's description of pound for pound
Mir has said that pound for pound means the fighters are the exact same size. So if Penn, Fedor, Silva, GSP, etc. were hypothetically all the exact same size, who would be the best? So you’re basically discounting weight.
I believe this is what pound for pound truly means, and based on this discription, Fedor isn’t number one.
by pud333 on Oct 23, 2008 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Surely, Mir doesn’t mean “same size” as in same weight and height? Otherwise it seems kinda straight forward to me: 1. Consider the skill set of each fighter – technical as well as physical. 2. Factor out weight. That should do it.
by ununkvadrium on Oct 23, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means if they were all in the same weight class. It’s a means of setting some sort of standard.
by pud333 on Oct 23, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is as good a definition of "P4P" as any
And I agree with your conclusion.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I adhere to the same description...
..as given by Mir. It’s concise. Who knew he could be so smart?
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
P4P
thats exactly what p4p means. if all fighters were the same size meaning wieght class, who would be the best with their given abilities if they were all the same size. the term pound for poun was coined back in the 40s for boxer sugar ray robinson. he was so good that boxing writers had to come up with a way to describe him, and p4p was it.
by bdw on Oct 23, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP
Fedor, as people pointed out hasn’t fought everyone he needs to fight.
Silva has dominated every good fighter he runs into…but his ground game takes away from what I consider ‘best’. If we are talking on shear dominance, I change my vote to Silva. But if your definition of P4P Best is the overall skills of someone, I narrow it down to Penn and GSP.
I think GSP will beat Penn in their fight. So I go with St Pierre. Not only that, he is a bit more athletic, and has age on his side. We have never seen a guy like GSP before, who ridiculously ahead of the curve, dominant, and smart all at a young age.
by Slica on Oct 23, 2008 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Discounting Silva's ground game?
Did you see his fight against Travis Lutter? Silva has a legit blackbelt from Nogeira—just cause his standup is so good, he hasn’t gotten to show it as much.
I think Silva vs. GSP would be a great fight.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few things to consider...
Fedor: Fedor not fighting often is an obvious one. Not really too much to say there.
Silva: For kneetotheface’s comment about cro cop being a supperior striker… i competely disagree… Minimal head movement and decent footwork as opposed to silva who just sits back and find openings because his movement is so flawless. Cro Cop just had devistating power in his legs, and we’ve never seen anderson load a punch or kick, so who knows how truly hard he can hit.
Also, We don’t know what silva can do, i feel as if he intentionally masks his abilities because he has no need to use them all. We have never even seen him TRY to wrestle (not to say he’d be a phenom), but I have a hard time beleiving that as a blackbelt under the nogueira’s and a good friend of paulo filho’s he has a limited or subpar ground game, i’m willing to bet he’s far more rounded then we realize.
BJ: 3 of 4 losses were conditioning related, all decision. Also, his only tko was AFTER he suffered a broken rib from hughes. it’s very likely hughes would have been on ice had he not taken out that rib. That is crazy, the man even gave lyoto a bit of trouble dispite a HUGE size disadvantage, that’s not natural. also keep in mind he is still pretty young, so I think the best is yet to come.
GSP: Only real weakness so far have been rookie mistakes… but he’s such a student of the game and great athlete that he’s only improving everyday. As he matures we will see his best too and like BJ he is also a baby.
Urijah: Having done both a gsp and Uriajah Faber seminar this year, and after working with and talking to them both, i can tell you Uriajah is a stand up guy and great fighter, however as tight as his game is, he’s not yet peaked. He has crazy speed, awesome boxing great wrestling, and he’s a hell of a grappler (trust me), but i don’t feel that he’s integrated them as well as he can yet, not to put him down, but i dont feel as if he’s as close to his potential as a fighter as the others on this list, which mean the best is still yet to come from him. I think with more tough opponents, and a bit of experience he will be there within a year or two.
All that being said my list would be as follows…..
A Silva,
BJ
GSP
Faber
with fedor excluded until the arlovski fight!
thank you, come again.
by JaeeJaee on Oct 23, 2008 8:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good reasoning, agree with your list ...
Exscept I would put GSP above BJ. I think BJ is more mentally weak—I don’t forgive the conditioning problems, that’s a huge part of the game.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that Thiago Alves could easily beat either GSP or BJ and therefore deserves significantly more P4P consideration. This could mean both should be rated lower, or Alves should just be rated higher. He’s as effective as Chuck Liddell in his prime but with his own style that is much less risky. I know it seems as though I’m going out on a limb, but the WW division has been dominated by grapplers to this point and has never seen a fighter with the standup and raw power of Alves (who is no novice on the ground). I think that Alves will be a fixture in the years to come, more and more people will be getting on board soon. The way P4P lists are constructed is largely based on results, not speculation which unfortunately goes against my personal rankings of fighters.
Is BJ going to outstrike Alves? That “display” he put on vs. Sherk is more about Sherk’s lack of reach and boxing than Penn’s skill. He has decent power in his hands and a good chin, but not overwhelming standup and I would see him getting beaten to the punch often. Penn also tends to plod around which makes him an easy target for leg kicks. Can he take Alves down, and once they’re down can he finish the fight? Alves is a powerhouse with a BB in BJJ – plus his strength may be able to overpower some of BJ’s technique.
GSP’s weakest area (imo) is his standup. He’s training all of this BJJ right now, but his chin is his weakness along with lack of KO power standing up. Those two things could mean an early finish by Thiago. He may be stronger than GSP as well – a great base should help him shrug off takedowns and the fights with Karo, Hughes, Kos have prepared him for a challenge like GSP. GSP is so talented that I wouldn’t be surprised if he stepped it up, but his best chance is definitely on the ground with some big-time GnP.
by bigweeze on Nov 4, 2008 2:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not going to go over all of your points, but I think by the end of 2009, he very well could figure into the equation in a big way.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Nov 4, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No problem with that list. And while i picked BJ #1, I hope you aren’t giving him a pass for not being in shape. Lack of conditioning is no excuse and could easily be held against him in these arguments.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not giving him a buy
But just noting that strictly looking at the numbers isn’t truly indicative of skill, a younger less mature bj was a wealth of untapped talent, but currently, I feel as though bj is truly rededicated to the sport (unlike karo, who I would love to see really "train"). I don’t think bj’s ever been mentally beaten, so while I don’t think he’s as strong mentally as A. Silva or Fedor (I think both have minds like fortresses), i think he’s more certain of himself under fire then gsp is… from what I’ve withnessed thus far. With all the guys on this list, they evolve so fast that I swear they are never the same fighters twice.
by JaeeJaee on Oct 24, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is about how I feel as well.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although it aggravates me that Fedor doesn’t fight more often, I just can’t justify ranking anybody ahead of him. Look at his record. It’s freaking amazing.
by Josh H. on Oct 23, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Enter..... MIGUEL TORRES
34-1 with 12 more wins unconfirmed. NO ONE in the rest of MMA can say they are that dominant. You can say the 135lb weight class is not organized enough to consistently fight top competition but the WEC is getting good had he has had 3 tough fights there. His opponents combined fight record is 203-123 so most of them had decent records. He is versatile and aggressive without needing a strength advantage to win fights. He has also finished 80% of his fights including his last 10. If he beats Urijah then there is absolutely no debate.
by EazyEismydad on Oct 23, 2008 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's the reason I wish there was an "other" on the survey, if not his name
He’s truly amazing.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"other" and miguel
I actually thought about including Miguel, as well as “other,” but ultimately decided to keep it simple. In retrospect, I think you’re right and I wish I had included both.
Then again, the survey was hopelessly compromised because it was “freeped” by Fedor supporters (not trying to bring politics in, that’s just a verb for bumrushing a poll).
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Oct 23, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's all good
It’s not to say I would have voted for him, or that the results have any substantial effect on the MMA world— the names are sort of the result. Haha
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
We finally lost, but at least we got a point.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Torres bandwagon when 95% of people have only seen him fight three times is unsettling.
Getting a good record outside of major organizations is very easy, especially when you’re in an unpopular weight class and you run a reputable school. Connections are fun.
I am by no means saying he isn’t qualified for this list. I’m just pointing out the fervor is a little unfounded at this point.
by Simco on Oct 23, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you're saying..
..is if a fighter is good and you like him, you’re a bandwagon jumper. He’s not the most popular fighter in the world. Awful analogy..
But I am interested to learn that you broke down film on all of his 35 fights, and also that you know how many others here have seen. My surrender.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a lot of those wins are at much higher weight classes. Torres is the man.
by szucconi on Oct 23, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome, and he is one of the couple of others I had in mind when contemplating this. I just want to see a couple more high level fights for him.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has the height and reach to dominate on the feet (little guys don’t get KOd as easily though).
The BJJ skills are definitely there, I love watching him fight off of his back – the busiest bottom fighter I’ve ever seen.
Kind of like a little A. Silva, with better BJJ, less
I think he could be the best P4P fighter, but I have a hard time comparing him with say Fedor. The weight difference is so large (100 lbs), and you can’t expect a big guy to move nearly as quickly.
by bigweeze on Nov 4, 2008 2:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean he had 3 tough fights in the WEC
by EazyEismydad on Oct 23, 2008 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s got a huge tank; absolutely never tires. Just got his BJJ black belt. Amazing striker, great sprawler, excellent kicks.. He’s gonna be around for a long time. He’s Zuffa’s flagbearer for Mexico/South America, I personally think (especially with Huerta perhaps not being what he was billed as, even though he’s still a pretty talented dude who looks great in a Kangol hat).
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Torres..started martial arts at the age of 7. Titles consist of: WEC Bantamweight Champion. Black belt in BJJ under Carlson Gracie. Total Fight Challenge, Iron Heart Crown, Shooto Americas 132-pound, Extreme Shootfighting, and Superbrawl Champion. He actually has another 12 unaccounted for victories.
Here is a good article on Torres. http://mmajunkie.com/news/4427/miguel-torres-from-barrooms-to-the-big-time.mma
by Mirjitsu on Oct 23, 2008 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t Fedor’s only loss due to a cut? More importantly, knowing Fedor and his personality/fighting style, would/could he have come back to win that fight?
F. Emilianenko – 28W, 1L, 0D, 1NC – 21W by KO/SUB, 7W by Decision 1st fight : 8/16/00 (W)
G. St. Pierre – 17W, 2L, 0D, 0NC – 12W by KO/SUB, 5W by Decision 1st fight : 1/25/02 (W)
B.J. Penn – 13W, 4L, 1D, 0NC – 10W by KO/SUB, 3W by Decision 1st fight : 5/4/01 (W)
A.Silva – 22W, 4L, 0D, 0NC – 17W by KO/SUB, 5W by Decision 1st fight : 5/27/00 (L)
U. Faber – 21W, 1L, 0D, 0NC – 18W by KO/SUB, 3W by Decision 1st fight : 11/13/03 (W)
M. Torres – 34W, 1L, 0D, 0NC – 29W by KO/SUB, 5W by Decision 1st fight : 3/27/00 (W)
J. Horn – 80W, 18L, 5D, 0NC – 68W by KO/SUB, 12W by Decision 1st fight : 3/01/96 (W)
Don’t we measure a fighter based on his results against his competitors?
If Fedor is theoretically undefeated in the heaviest fighting weights, and nodody lighter than him can beat him IN REAL LIFE, then why isn’t he the “Best fighter in the world”?
Authors note : These statistics are meant for reference & perspective pertaining to this argument, and I just threw Torres & Jeremy in there to add a little more spice to the conversation
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 23, 2008 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you understand what pound for pound means.
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Richard, if you are refering to my questions….
You’ve obviously seen my other response in ‘Dana White hearts Brock…’, where I gave my definition of P4P because you posted a response to it (a rather asinine one at that), and if you noticed there, I fully understand the proper definition of P4P, but I was aiming to pose a NEW QUESTION which PERTAINED TO REALITY, not a hypothetical. I dig the whole P4P debate, it’s fun and all, I was just looking to see if anyone questioned the REALITY that Fedor can’t be beat by anybody we know of, making him the real “Best fighter in the world”. And, if anyone disagrees, please feel free to respond and explain.
Please, in the future Richard, do your research before making assumptions, all you have to do is scroll up a little higher in the response section to get a better understanding of my response and/or stance/experience/knowledge before you go accusing me of what I do and do not know.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 24, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RNC, perhaps if you have a new topic you should post a new FanPost rather than trying to hijack a thread on a different topic.
by Richard Wade on Oct 24, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Rich,
It’s not really a new topic, but more of a variation of the topic, which I think is a valid point to be brought into the discussion, and based on peoples posts after mine, they seem to be enjoying the discussion. I’m of the school that conversations and discussions are supposed to evolve, with one learning new things through the process. A conversation that remains one dimensional will soon go stale, with no real new understanding happening.
By the by Rich, i’ve been checking your past posts, and you never seem to have a comment that’s longer than 2-3 sentences, so it makes me wonder : 1. Do you fight? Are you at least semi knowledgable when it comes to MMA? 3. Are you a blog moderator, or a blogger? If you’re a moderator, then I can understand where you’re coming from, but if you’re just a regular blogger like me, then chill the * out, answer the questions, or don’t answer the questions, and try to enjoy yourself!
No disrespect intended, but when I ask a real question like, " Do we know of anyone who can beat Fedor in real life?“, and you’re response is,
”Sure, in real life I could take him"It becomes obvious that you’re missing the point, and avoiding answering the question truthfully, which is a shame, because now that I know of you, I’d really like to see what your real answer would be.
It’s like I said in my first response to you, please do your research! At least make the effort to aquire the basic knowledge necessary to make the distinction between variation of topic and new topic before start spouting off at the lip!
Or
Maybe if you spent a little more time learning MMA and less time criticizing conversations in this and your 15 OTHER SPORTS BLOGS!, You’ve have a valid opinion to share with the rest of us!
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 24, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with going solely by that, is the pool of fighters in which they fight.
Fedor never drowns, but he is in a fairly shallow pool (not his fault), where as BJ and GSP for instance occasionally go under, but are swimming in very deep pools. Silva also has this problem, though I think the quality of guys at 185 is greatly underrated.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better question...
Who do you think can beat Fedor RIGHT NOW in REAL LIFE? Explanations would be appreciated.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 23, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Realistically NOBODY would beat Fedor. Anderson doesn't stand a chance against Fedor.
REALISTICALLY Fedor is UNDEFEATED. Fedor been in situations which no other fighter would pull through. Fedor DOMINATES on the ground AND stand-up. Fedor fights as if he was a light heavyweight or middleweight. Fedor would beat Anderson and GSP and BJ on the ground AND stand-up. with his fights with Nogueira Fedor PROVED AND SHOWED his Sambo destroys Jiu Jitsu. so Fedors Sambo ability destroys Jiu Jitsu so what makes ANYBODY think Anderson would even stand a chance against Fedor? Anderson got his black belt from Noguiera and Fedor destroys Noguiera so how can ANYBODY think Anderson would even stand the slightest chance against Fedor?
by Dank456 on Oct 23, 2008 10:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The reason people would think he stands the SLIGHTEST chance against Fedor is because his striking is superior to Fedor’s. However this mythical open-weight fight would likely involve an early take-down, so the striking game probably wouldn’t come into play much.
That said, this is really outside the focus of a pound for pound discussion.
by Estrada on Oct 24, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor can hit hard and Fedor has been hit hard. when Fedor gets rocked he takes his opponents down and submits them with ease like he would do Anderson if Anderson was able to rock Fedor. like against Fujita Fedor was was rocked HARD and he beat Fujita when he was still out of it. Sylvia who is a big man and can take a serious bunch said himself he never in his life got hit as hard as when Fedor hit him. Fedor would outstrike and and beat anybody on the ground. simple as that. Fedor would take Andersons best and submit him.
by Dank456 on Oct 24, 2008 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol.
Fedor’s whole legacy is becoming funnier and funnier to have to read about. I get it… Fedor is a “cyborg” and all that… But his resume is not nearly as good as you fans try to maintain. The more that I look at it, the funnier these arguments become… His best wins are over Nog, and those I grant u are mighty impressive… but the wins vs. Hunt, Cro COp (most overrated fighter from pride) Coleman, Randleman, Arona (middleweight), Lindland (middleweight), etc… Are not that impressive… beating Middleweights as a HW is not impressive… Beating one dimensional fighters repeatedly is not that impressive, even if they have k1 striking. Beating names that are not well rounded (goodridge, hunt, coleman, randleman, schall) is not that impressive. HW is the division with the least amount of talented fighters, and so he has been dominant… His whole legacy stems from this preconceived notion that Pride was way better than UFC, and since he dominated, he will be seen as the best by his legions of fans… That doesn’t make it true… it just makes him somethin of a novelty act…. That can fight one ‘tough’ fight every few years to keep you satisfied.
by Loot on Oct 24, 2008 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Anderson could fight at Heavyweight and fight Fedor too cause he walks around at over 205. That fight should happen. There are only less than a handful of Heavyweight fighters left worthy to fight Fedor. Arona and Lindland walk around at over 205 so thats not a problem. Fedor beat middleweights and light heavyweights who stepped up. If anybody would step up to Fedor he’d fight.. Sylvia and Coleman and Randleman where all UFC Heavyweight champs. Arona is very accomplished. Realistically Lindland beat Rampage right before Rampage went to UFC but it was a B.S. split decision in favor of Rampage. Like you know Fedor has beat Middleweights and Light Heavyweights Anderson walks around at Heavyweight so Anderson could very well fight Fedor if he stepped up in the future. Fedor is very quick for a Heavyweight he hangs in with Middleweights and Light Heavyweights with ease. Everyone knows Anderson, BJ, GSP & Faber are all beatable they all been beaten. Nobody knows if Fedor is beatable nobody beat him yet. All we know is Fedor bleeds and bruises so he must be human not a “cyborg”.
by Dank456 on Oct 24, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor is the correct answer
Why? Because he’s never been defeated (his one “loss” was by accidental cut seconds into a fight – an opponent he later destroyed).
In MMA, going undefeated is unheard of. I don’t care what you say, to be undefeated after fighting Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira 3 times, Mark Coleman 2 times, Tim Sylvia, Mark Hunt and Mirko Cro Cop is nothing short of astounding.
Anderson Silva, as great as he is, can’t say that.
by FadeToBlack on Oct 24, 2008 5:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The amazing thing about Fedor (besides his record) is that he could easily fight at 205. Fedor is a raw talent. It’s amazing what he’s done. Could you imagine what he could do if he trained out of extreme Couture or under Greg Jackson. I think Fedor ( given his lack of technology, training partners, nutritionist, ect..) has only reached about 75% of his true potential and that’s scary considering how easily he currently manhandles his opponents.
by Josh H. on Oct 24, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, this has been a very fun and interesting thread, with most people making their picks on some sort of logical basis.
Thanks, Thetakeover for starting this thread.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Oct 24, 2008 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wait..
The argument that a record makes a guy the fighter he is TODAY is absolutely, purely invalid. People saying that Anderson Silva, today, is not as good a P4P as Fedor, today, is an adverse assessment. Fedor fought Coleman and Nog years ago. Silva is presently unbeatable (thus, the organic nature of P4P lists) and has faced the best fighters available for him to face. Fedor has been jet setting around MMA orgs for the last three years, essentially free to go and face whomever he chooses. Anderson does not have that liberty, and has still faced (and finished) the likes of Franklin (deuce), Marquardt and Dan Henderson.
Don’t be like NFL analysts that do Power Rankings based on who won and lost. If you want to rank fighters on record; then just grab a calculator..
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I meant to say is the argument that Fedor is better than Silva today because of his total record, is invalid..
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Nogueira clearly is still ranked the 2nd best Heavyweight in the world and Fedor beat him TWICE when Nogeira was at his BEST. Filho is ranked the 2nd best Middlewight and Anderson said he will never fight Filho. So we clearly we will never know if Anderson is even the best Middleweight. Now Sylvia was a Top 5 Heavyweight and according to Sherdog Sylvia still is a Top 5 Heavyweight. until Couture proves himself but Sylvia either way still remains a Top 10 Heavyweight and it took Couture 5 rounds to beat Sylvia and it took Fedor 30 seconds. Now Fedor is fighting Arlovski next who is ranked the 3rd Best Heavyweight in the world. Than after Arlovski Fedor most likely will fight Barnett who is ranked 4th. While Anderson will never fight the top contender instead hell fight unranked non worthy fighters like Cote. The Middleweight division on its own is weak one of the weakest if not THE division in MMA.
by Dank456 on Oct 24, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude..
This is all conjecture. If Sherdog tells you that your house is on fire while you’re working, are you going to drive home? Filho is NOT the number two middleweight in the world. You’re telling me you think Paulo Filho would win a fight with Dan Henderson? We can fabricate different angles for arguments, but Anderson has knocked down every pin set before him, and they’re even bouncing into other lanes. He’s purely dominant right now; transcendant, perhaps. He looked like he was doing a dance routine when he fucked up Irvin and he ripped his cheek off. I’m sorry, but I can’t concede that Fedor is the #1 heavy due to his recent competition, so I can’t reasonably call him the best P4P. A lot of guys won fights three years ago. It doesn’t matter anymore. It’s what have you done for me lately— guys get older, not younger. What is doing right now that makes him better than everyone? Figuring out Timmay is not P4P champion worthy, by any means or stretch of the imagination.
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
I like Fedor. I want to see him take better fights, because it would be awesome. But he hasn’t been. End of story.
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well Fedor beat Sylvia who was Top 5 HW in 30 seconds. Fedor is fighting Arlovksi who is ranked the 3rd best in Jan and fighting Barnett the 4th best after Arlovski. who else you want Fedor to fight? you want him to fight Nougeira again after Nougeira admitted he cant beat Fedor and nobody can? Filho is ranked 2nd not only on sherdog but pretty much EVERYWHERE. so EVERYONE all the LEGIT SOURCES are completely wrong but you are right? LOL. Filho IS the 2nd best MW. the Middleweight division is the weakest division in MMA. which is why a LHW like Franklin slimmed down so he can dominate an easy division until a competitor finally came along in Anderson.
by Dank456 on Oct 24, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Filho is number two like Fedor is number one-- by default
Come on man, talk to some people.. No one is very confident in Filho’s abilities, he’s just slotted in there. LOLZ! And stop with this shit about who Fedor is going to fight. I’m going to buy a castle and marry Rachelle Leah. Keep building scenarios mang..
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/4/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-14698
http://www.cagepotato.com/fighter-rankings/
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/topten.asp?articleid=14&zoneid=15
http://www.411mania.com/MMA/columns/67650/4115C5Cs-MMA-Rankings-1.24.08:-Middleweight-Division.htm
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/9/23/620157/bloody-elbow-september-mma
WHEREVER you go Filho is #2. hes undefeated and beat everyone in his way. you seem to be the only one questioning Filho. LOL.. well Fedor vs Arlovski is already set for Jan. Barnett will definitely be next cause recently he refused to fight Fedor and Arlovski is clearly most deserving now anyways. while Anderson will keep dodging Filho and fight some undeserving opponents in the weakest division in MMA. LOL. and for the record Ryo submitted Anderson and Filho submitted Ryo real quick. until Anderson will fight Filho i dont see how Anderson is even the best MW and Anderson will not fight Filho so we will never know if Anderson is even the best MW. Nougeira usedta be the best unstoppable HW except until his fights with Fedor when Fedor was the underdog. Nougeira cannot beat Fedor and Nougeira will forever remain #2 at best. all the best fighters made mistakes and lost except Fedor so i dont see how Fedor isnt unanimously #1 p4p. it took couture 5 rounds to beat sylvia it took nougeira 3 rounds and took Fedor 30 seconds. looks like Fedor is STILL Fedor. and we will all see it against Arlovski and Barnett.
by Dank456 on Oct 25, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, listen to yourself
Anderson Silva is not the best middleweight because he hasn’t fought and beaten Filho? That’s wild, dude..
I don’t think you get it; nobody cares that Filho is ranked second. He almost lost to Chael Sonnen the last time he fought (ummm… how long ago was that now?) and he has major personal issues that are clearly affecting his ability to fight. Not sure what you love about the kid so much, but he’s not Anderson’s roadblock to glory. That’s seriously hilarious..
As for Fedor, I hope he gets to fight both guys, and if he beats both, we can revisit this topic. But seriously, don’t get too crazy with your whole Filho/Silva proclamations, because that’s just bizarre. I mean, you’re talking about no one agreeing with me that Filho isn’t number two. Waaaaay fewer people will agree with you that Anderson isn’t the best 185 because of Paulo fuckin Filho. Again, what the fuck has he done lately? Flimsy argument..
by Blackout612 on Oct 25, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What up Blackout
I’ve enjoyed reading your opinions the last few months, it seems to me that we see eye to eye on a lot of things, so let me ask you (if it doesn’t bother Richard), who do you think is the best heavyweight out there today, and why?
Also a question for everyone (Sorry Rich), REALISTICALLY speaking,does the best heavyweight MMA fighter in the world, by default, become the best fighter in the world?
Author’s note : I argue yes, because if no one smaller than you can beat you, even if their skill set is more refined, IN REAL LIFE you are the most dominant fighter alive.
Agree? Disagree? Don’t give a ****? Let me know!
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 24, 2008 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I'll play..
First, I sort of went over my thoughts on heavies on another thread (I think?) in that I can’t personally define the #1 guy. Fedor is obviously the most talented, but Nog has fought more and fought better competition. Forced to choose, I have Minotauro at one and Fedor at two. Throwing myself to the wolves, I know. But competition is important to me, particulary as a fan. I love Fedor and want to see him do more. Arlovski would move him into first on my charts, no doubt. But who knows what’ll come of the four way heavyweight title dance in the UFC and how I’ll see a guy like Nog after that.
As for the idea that the big guy wins, I’d be more likely to choose a 205er, because many of them cut lower. If you’re talking about going open weight, well— it’s not like there would be a freeze on their present weight, right? You have to start considering guys like Machida, Rampage, Wanderlei, Thiago Silva and, hell, Anderson (who walks around at 205+) and how some of those guys match up with heavier fighters/what their chances of victory truly are.
I love open weight tournaments, personally. But in the US, you’ll never really see this question answered. And also, I don’t like the idea that because a guy is smaller, he is less dominating/credible. I mean, there are weight classes because it’s a determination of a fighters ability more than it is his ability to bully around a guy that was born with a smaller build.
So yeah.. that’s why we argue P4P and not just who would win realistically. The P4P debate contains more conjectural intrigue..
by Blackout612 on Oct 24, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finishing
one of the reasons that I would put Anderson ahead of Fedor is he finishes his fights.when fedor fighhts top competition,like CroCop and BigNog they went to the judges score cards.the only top competition that Fedor has ever finished was the Maineiac.other than that he has fought a lot of cans.
by TheLevi on Oct 28, 2008 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I kinda see your point....
but I don’t see how the Big Nog and Crocop fights can be used against Fedor. No Fedor didn’t stop them but in both cases they were complete one-sided domination in every facet of the game.
by Tonley on Oct 28, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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