Dana White Hearts Brock Lesnar, Not Fedor Emelianenko
by mythbuster on Oct 23, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
Email
Print
Promoted by Kid Nate.
In an article for The Sun, Dana White has some comments about Brock, and the upcoming Brock vs. Randy fight:
"It's such an interesting fight because Couture is so good at coming up with plans for finding weaknesses in guys' games and exposing them.
"But Lesnar's such a different animal, this guy is so big, so strong and so fast at that weight it's just phenomenal.
"For what he lacks in technique and knowledge, he makes up for in size, speed and power.
"Lesnar could go on to be the best heavyweight and the longest-reigning heavyweight - who knows what could happen with him."
Dana acknowledges, unwittingly, what many of us already know - Brock isn't very good, but has to rely on being much larger than his opposition to win. Believe it or not, Kimbo and Brock are very similar. Both are (were) very marketable, but not very skilled at MMA.
On Fedor:
"If Couture loses to Lesnar, I don't know how much more interest there is in a Fedor v Couture fight.
"I think you'd be looking at Fedor going up against whoever the best heavyweight at the time is."
And White refused to acknowledge the Russian as the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet until he competes in the UFC.
He said: "Fedor shouldn't win any accolades until he starts fighting the best in the world.
"You've got to respect the guys like Georges St Pierre, Anderson Silva, BJ Penn, Forrest Griffin and Antonio Nogueira.
"These guys are actually out there fighting people three times a year to prove they're the best.
"So until Fedor does that, you’ll never hear me talk positively about him."
I have to agree with him here. Start fighting, Fedor. I'm tired of hearing how great you are and not seeing it. And no, Sylvia doesn't count.
Edit: I don't mean to imply that Sylvia doesn't count as a great fighter. I meant that he is a former champ, and the only real contender Fedor has fought in a while. That one fight doesn't count as "continually fighting the best in the world".
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
165 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Comparisons between Kimbo and Lesnar are absurd
Lesnar manhandled Heath Herring with his wrestling and shattered his orbital bone with his first punch.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 11:12 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I have to agree
Lesnar has legit athletic credentials and a mastery of one of the key three aspects of MMA. Kimbo isn’t even a legit striker.
Agreed
Brock is a high caliber athlete and has shown appreciable progress in his short career. All Kimbo has done is been consistently underwhelming.
by Rundownloser on Oct 23, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
How?
I’ve had this discussion before, how has Brock progressed? In his ability to not get kneebared against a non-JJ guy?
He used the same tactics he used against Mir. What was the progress, please?
Boy...
that is a gross misstatement. Against Mir he used no patience at all and did not allow himself to use his control skills at any point, instead he FREAKED OUT. Against Herring he was patient and smart. There was a major difference in gameplan in those two fights. But beyond that the fact that his gameplan revolves around extreme talent in a legitimate base skill for the sport. Kimbo was an “okay” striker who did not possess the advertised power.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 23, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I could be wrong
I wish I had ani-gifs of both fights, but I don’t. My recollection is:
vs Mir: Bullrush, ground and pound, get caught and submitted by a BJJ blackbelt.
vs Herring: Bullrush, ground and pound, don’t get caught and submitted by a non-BJJ blackbelt.
I do believe that the difference in the two fights was the opponent, not Brock. One was a submission specialist, the other a brawler guy.
I also don’t think Brock “freaked out” against Mir, I think he got caught in a submission by a blackbelt…
I could be mistaken but I think by freak out Brent is referring to Brock’s reaction to Mir getting hold oh his ankle. He tried to jump/pull away from the hold which caused him to fall and allowed Mir to really lock it in tight.
When did Heath Herring get lumped into the brawler category? That’s pretty demeaning of someone who has decent all around skills and a good record. Heath has more subs on his record than TKO’s. Granted some were due to strikes, but Heath isn’t a one trick pony like let’s say, Chris Leben.
Give Brock his due. He beat a very well qualified, well rounded opponent. It also bugs me that people dismiss Brock’s wrestling game because he uses his size and strength to maintain position. Well, of course he does. That’s one of the big parts of Brock’s wrestling.
Anyroad, I’m taking a wait and see approach with him. We’ll know by April or so whether or not he’s the real deal.
My bad
By brawler I meant “all around tough guy”, I didn’t mean in a Leben sense. Wrong word on my part, but still… tough guy vs tough guy – the bigger tough guy will win.
Look, could James “Floppy Ear” Thompson (257 lbs) beat Miguel Torres (135 lbs)? Of course… he could just sit on him and suffocate him. Does that mean James Thompson is a great fighter? Noooo it means he’s much larger than his opponent. That’s all I’m saying about Brock – until he fights a good fighter close to his size, it’s hard to take any claim that he has “skills” seriously.
So now we’re pretending wrestling skills aren’t skills? Coulda fooled me.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you disagree with? Are you as out of your mind as jemaleddin to think wrestling skills aren’t skills?
Or am I somehow misinterpreting this statement: “That’s all I’m saying about Brock – until he fights a good fighter close to his size, it’s hard to take any claim that he has "skills" seriously.”
Looks pretty clear cut to me what you said. If you meant something else, say something else.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you disagree with? Are you as out of your mind as jemaleddin to think wrestling skills aren’t skills?
I disagreed with something??
No offense, man, but sober up and come back, try again. You’re seriously not making much sense.
Did you bother to read the whole thing, or just felt like typing something?
You don’t say something like that unless you disagree with my response, or you’re just ducking it completely.
Quit ducking. Do you consider Brock to have skills at wrestling, or not?
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You can find your answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brock_lesnar
And after accusing me of claiming wrestling wasn’t a skill, after saying I disagreed with something when I clearly didn’t with anything (in facdt, I just asked if you read what I wrote or just wanted to type), and now after telling me to “quit ducking” about whether Brock can wrestle or not.. I give you a gift.
If that doesn’t help, maybe a good remedial English course at your local college could help you out.
Wow..
Weren’t you making comments about personal attacks yesterday because I said your behaviour was ridiculous? Come on man, ease up..
Who, Michaelthebox?
I haven’t always agreed with him, either.. He almost shit a squirrel when I called some of Bisping’s old opponents cans. I said eff it and moved on..
PLEASE CAN WE SETTLE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL?
Wrestling skills are skills. Knitting skills are skills. Licking Brocks nutsack is a skill.
But that doesn’t make any of them a combat skill!
Wrestling is a sport that represents a very pure form of competition: get the other guy on his back before he does it to you. It’s like football in that sense – get the ball down the field – but without all the rules and equipment and stuff. Its athletes are some of the most amazing in the world. But there’s no striking. There’s no submissions. There’s nothing at in terms of actual FIGHTING.
So yes, Brock is a talented wrestler. But I hear that Michael Phelps is a talented swimmer. What does that have to do with fighting?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
You’re way off base on this one. Wrestling is a combat skill. You can’t even begin to make a legitimate argument that it’s not.
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
How exactly – other than laying on someone for 15 minutes, does a wrestler win an MMA fight?
Striking is combat.
Submissions are combat.
Did you ever hear of someone wrestled to death?
Wrestling is a supporting skill. It’’s great as a supplement to striking or ground-n-pound or submissions, but by itself it’s not a combat skill.
Here’s another thing that’s essential in MMA: cardio. Is running a combat skill? Is aerobics?
How about strength training? Is weight-lifting a combat skill?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Come on J,
can you benchpress someone & win in MMA? Wrestling is a platform in MMA, just as striking & BJJ is. There is no denying that. Every great, well rounded fighter has some of all 3 typically
That’s my point, actually: you can benchpress someone to win just as easily as pinning them to win. Don’t mean a thing.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I understand
you hate Lesnar & that is cool, you are entitled to your opinion. But go look at GSP since he started wrestling & look at the difference.
I’M NOT SAYING THAT WRESTLING IS USELESS.
I’M SAYING IT ISN’T FIGHTING.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Since when are you obligated to finish your opponent? Decisions count in this sport as well. It ain’t pretty, but its the truth.
Take off the hater glasses. Brock might not be able to beat any “skilled” fighter in real world combat situation. But this is MMA, a sport, in which wrestling is a well known and well accepted skill.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are wrong to discount wrestling as it translates to fighting. Wrestling plays a big part in position and control.
Seriously jemaleddin, I expected better from you. While wrestling skills have to be adapted, they are indeed used in MMA, or else there are a shitload of fighters with a background in wrestling, who are kicking the crap out of people who have backgrounds in actual fighting, according to you. Or are you saying that no non-fighting sport skill transfers to MMA? Or just striking sports? What kind of bullshit do you expect us to buy?
by Michaelthebox on Oct 23, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree,
by J’s reasoning that wrestling is not combat then how can BJJ be considered combat? There is no striking
Come on Myth,
I usually enjoy our discussions but this one does not do it. He makes the weight class requirements, period. Any other fighter can also do the same thing. If in 10 or 15 fights he has not had any improvments to his gameplanning or finishing then we can discuss again. Until then, he has had 3 fights, he is a baby in MMA
I agree
Which is why I keep saying I would love to see a super heavyweight division. And not any fighter can do the same thing – it’s hard to go back in time and be born genetic freaks.
True,
but why would we discount that about him? He is still a beast & makes the weight requirements. He is an athletic freak, so lets see if he can translate that to MMA. Until a super heavy division comes, those huge guys that would be in that class can also drop weight to make heavy as he does.
Yup – anybody with 10 years to do steroids can be just as big.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Not really,
after 10 years of doping you cannot simply stop doing them & continue to keep your size & strength. Look at Lyle Alzado maybe
I’m just trying to reason out your statement that, “Any other fighter can also do the same thing.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Any other fighter who could be considered above heavy can cut down just like he does & just like Silva does, just like Franklin always did
They could cut down to Light Heavyweight.
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
And Kimbo beat Tank Abbott. Both guys beat someone they were supposed to beat.
And add to that, Brock manhandled Herring because of his size and strength, not wrestling skill (and I know, Brock has legit wrestling creds). He bullrushed him, sat on him a,d smacked him for three rounds without an ability to finish.
My point remain – both guys are/were main eventing due to their marketability, not their crazy MMA skills.
Agreed
that Lesnar is still very “green” in MMA with only 3 fights to his credit. But, you cannot understate someone of that size & being markably more athletic than guys smaller than him. Why should he not use his size to his advantage until he learns more? He used his wrestling against a guy in Herring who is notorious for being hard to keep down. Do we bash a basketball player who is 7’6 and simply dunks all of the time instead of shooting three pointers?
I didn’t say he shouldn’t use his size. Of course he should. I would, however, love to see a super heavyweight division where he could actually prove if he has skills, instead of just being much bigger than his opponents.
According to UFC.com
Randy Couture – 220 lbs
Brock Lesnar – 265 lbs.
Randy winning would be a miracle, Brock winning would be a “duh”. I find it hard to give Brock credit as a skilled mixed martial artist when he out weighs his opponent by 45 lbs.
Personally I think Brock would do much better in a super heavyweight class. Who is that size that would have a chance against him?
His disadvantage as of now is that he could get submitted by advanced BJJ guys (Big Nog would have to be a huge favorite against him) of which there are less and less the bigger the weight class gets.
Personally I think Brock would do much better in a super heavyweight class. Who is that size that would have a chance against him?
Good question, I would love to see them try to answer it.
And I agree completely, his weakness would probably be against submission guys, weight and size differences aside (220 lber gonna armbar that guy?)
His first professional fight was supposed to be against Hong-Man Choi in Los Angeles but I think Choi failed his physical and they had to replace him. While I agree that the fight would have been fun as a spectacle (the promoter was Shaw Sr.) guys of that size are just not quick enough or skilled enough to match up with a guy whos just as strong (if not stronger) like Lesner.
He fights within
the weight classes that are out there. You cannot dismiss a guy who is bigger that makes the weight requirements of the division. The point is, he has 3 fights in MMA & what under 2yrs training & only comes from a wrestling background? What do you expect from the guy at this point? Until he learns the other important aspects of MMA, he uses what he has and very well. Mir was getting his head smashed in until he hooked that leg & Herring (considered by many as a very well rounded dangerous heavyweight who pushed Big Nog) was destroyed by Lesnar for 3 rounds. True he did not finish him, but I am not sure that we can expect anyone in their 3rd professional fight to finish a fighter of Herring’s caliber.
I think you mis-read my post that you're replying to.
You cannot dismiss a guy who is bigger that makes the weight requirements of the division
I said I would love to see a super heavyweight division because, yes, I can dismiss him when he outweighs his opponent by 45 lbs.
Other point: Brock was favored by the odds makers to beat both Mir and Herring. Was this because of his lack of experience or because of his superb MMA skills? Or was it because he was so much bigger that the people who put their money on the line knew that he could just donkey kong them around? The latter.
As an aside, Herring = 28-14, whose five fights in the UFC all ended in a decision. Don’t make more of the guy than he is in order to pump Lesnar up.
Your point on the weight is just ridiculous. Should we diminish the accomplishments of everyone who has to cut weight to get down to the weight class they fight in? Rich Franklin was a massive 185er, did that reduce the validity of his wins there?
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I’m glad you said that, cuz I didn’t want to.
Randy can cut to 205, his walking around weight is around 220.
Brocks CUT weight is 265, and probably walks around closer to 280 or 290.
So while 45 lbs is a huge weight difference, that’s only weigh-in weight, Actual fight time weight is probably much more unbalanced.
I respectfully disagree that Brock didn’t use his wrestling skill to maintain control of Herring. Did his size and strength help? Obviously, but if you know much about amateur wrestling then you’d recognize that Brock sat in top position with a tight-waist (i.e. arm around the waist, which I believe is also referred to as seat-belt control in other circles) and was able to keep Herring on the canvas in virtually the same position despite Heath’s attempts to get to guard or initiate a scramble.
Yeah, Kimbo’s won more than two fights. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Actually, Sylvia does count. It’s not enough, but that it doesn’t count is demonstrably false. He is one of the best heavyweights in the world. That matters.
Of course Sylvia counts. How quickly we forget that 16 months ago Dana was saying Tim Sylvia was the best Heavyweight on the planet. He also said that Fedor sucked and wasnt a top five heavyweight. Dana White is an owner promotor first and foremost. You can’t really take anything he says as truth. Take it as him minimizing anything non UFC for strictly personal gain.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Sorry
Didn’t mean that as a slam against Sylvia, but rather as a “fight the best in the world” thing, or at least just fight. You would know better than me, how many fights has Fedor had the past few years?
I wasn't making excuses for Fedor
However you have to look at his activity level in context. He was the top of the food chain and his promotion folded/ go bought out. So where exactly was he to go and earn the money he thinks he is worth? Dana White didn’t feel the need to pay Fedor what he was asking. Instead choosing to minimalize Fedor’s accomplishments to the sport. Fedor sure hasn’t looked any less impressive in the last 2 fights I watched.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Unemployment
If Fedor is serious about fighting, he’d do well to consider that you sometimes have to take a pay cut when switching between employers before you can prove you’re worth what you’re asking for.
A move to the UFC for, say, a two or three fight contract would give him the ability to prove he is the PFP best at HW… and allow the UFC to build up the Fedor ‘story’ for casual fans who don’t know who he is.
It’s a strategic business decision for the UFC. They’re not about to throw Fedor a guaranteed six or seven figure sum on the offchance that he loses first time round.
Granted the chances of that happening are slim but, if it did go down that way, what would they have got for their money then?? Any fighter can lose on any given day in this sport – Fedor included. The UFC knows this and is rightly cautious.
by VikingPhotography on Oct 23, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, Tim counts. Barely. But Tim’s another Brock – he gets more because of his size than his skill.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Either way, the problem everyone had with Fedor is the whole “what have you done for me lately” angle. With that said, dismantling perennial top-10 Sylvia and now going to fight Arlovski is answering the critics.
The parallels between Brock and Kimbo are clear. Both very marketable with aquired fame before they ever stepped into the cage. Both physically imposing figures. Both with the hype machine of their respective companies behind them. Both not yet entirely technical in all aspects of the game.
It is there that the comparisons stop. Kimbo was a streetfighter who used to work security for a porn company and own a pizza shop. Brock, conversely, has been a top level athlete his entire life, not withstandign the fact that his athletic prowess has been within one of the major disciplines that makes up MMA – wrestling. It’s the equivalent of guys like Jacare or Demian Maia who are jiu-jitsu wizards who are making the transition to mixed martial arts and, until they hone their skills in other disciplines, rely mainly on their BJJ at this point. No difference.
What Brock did with Herring was exactly what he should have done. Implement a game plan that would all but guarantee victory, don’t take risks even if it means sacrificing a finish, get the W over a perennial contender, and look like a monster while doing all of it.
Brock Lesnar is an entirely different animal then Kimbo Slice. Kimbo is a manufactured good who may potentially turn out to be something real, but the chances of that happened are low. Lesnar is legit and even if he loses to Randy which is a very real possibility, he has the athletic abilities to keep developing and adapting to the sport.
It’s the equivalent of guys like Jacare or Demian Maia who are jiu-jitsu wizards who are making the transition to mixed martial arts and, until they hone their skills in other disciplines, rely mainly on their BJJ at this point. No difference.
Well, one difference at least. Neither Jacare or Maia is headlining shows and making tons of money while being so green. Kimbo and Brock are/were.
Glad you agree with me. Kimbo and Brock are only there because of their marketability, and not their ‘skills’.
No one has ever argued that Brock wasn’t in the position he is because of his popularity. That’s common sense. Right know he’s at about the same level as Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez but those guys aren’t headlining yet. There’s nothing wrong with it though; people want to see Brock, are paying money to see Brock, and that only helps the company and the other fighters in the long run.
The issue here is your failure to admit the obvious differences between Kimbo and Brock/ I’ll reiterate it one more time: one is an overly hyped side show attraction with limited skills who nonetheless is charismatic enough to command attention while the other is an overly hyped legitimate athlete with developing skills who nonetheless is charismatic enough to command attention. The hype train is built by the companies. There is a stark contrast in athletic ability between the two and that can’t be discounted.
I refer you to what I wrote
Believe it or not, Kimbo and Brock are very similar. Both are (were) very marketable, but not very skilled at MMA.
So, while I sarcastically appreciate you reiterating a pointless point, it really is pointless.
Now, feel free to turn my words into anything else you want to and argue. I’m just gonna sit here and roll my eyes for a while.
Another difference
Maia and Jacare can finish fights. BJJ is a COMBAT sport, wrestling isn’t. No strikes, no subs.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
True,
but they are as one dimensional in subs as Brock is in wrestling & throwing those canned hams at peoples heads
And yet I’d rather watch them.
Then again, I’d rather watch an ice pick stabbing me in the eye than Brock, but that’s my own personal biases. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I like all aspects of MMA
& agree that Brock being in MMA is strange given his background. But if he can raise his game & skill level & beat some upper guys that will be pretty cool. I enjoy the idea of people from all walks of life competing just as I do seeing Randy do it at 45.
Everytime White speaks, I expect self gratifying nonsense. He is so pathologically ego-minded, that his words can’t be taken seriously. Unfortunately, there are so many Dana-Heads out there that fall for his charismatic BS, his words are given some sort of value…it is nonsense.
Wags
I think Dana’s comments do need to be looked at in the context of him being a promoter but at the same token you’re looking at it way too negatively. There is validity in saying that what the current crop of UFC champions have been doing is of higher merit than what Fedor has been up to.
Forrest just beat Shogun and Rampage and is about to fight Rashad Evans, who is undefeated and just knocked out superstar Chuck Liddell. Anderson Silva has not just beaten but demolised Rich Franklin, Dan Henderson, and Nate Marquardt in his past few fights, as well as a jump up in weight that lasted a minute. Georges St. Pierre just knocked off the clear number two guy in the world after demolishing a former champion as well as the guy who took his belt.
If Fedor guys and beats Arlovski then the argument will be without merit. Fedor is obviously one of the top p4p in the world, if not number one, but Dana’s point is and has been simply that until he goes out there and proves it in the present there’s no reason to talk about him instead of the UFC guys that are out doing it consistently.
To say that point is without merit is simply just jumping on the other side of the bias bandwagon, opposite from the “Dana-heads.” Sitting on either extreme end of the spectrum is just the wrong view. Park yourself in the middle and look at things subjectively – you’ll be surprised at what you see.
by dropkick101 on Oct 23, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor will NEVER be the best pound-for-pound fighter
Regarding:
And White refused to acknowledge the Russian as the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet until he competes in the UFC.
I don’t see how anybody can think Fedor is the best “pound-for-pound”—heavyweight, maybe, but not pound-for-pound. The dude weighs a ton, and his skill is nowhere near the level of Anderson Silva.
The “pound-for-pound” distinction is supposed to level the playing field for different weight classes. I’ve seen nothing in Fedor suggesting he’s as skilled as Anderson Silva or even BJ Penn.
He’s a great heavyweight, possibly best in the world (this remains to be proven) but I don’t think he’ll ever be the best pound-for-pound, even if he beat Couture and Brock.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
The dude weighs a ton? If that tubby bastard ever got on a treadmill, he could cut to 205.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I respectfully disagree that there is nothing in Fedor’s game that suggests he isn’t as skilled Anderson Silva or Penn. He beat Coleman, Nogueria, and Cro Cop when those guys were considered top heavyweights. Fedor was the first person to solve the Cro Cop riddle, and he put two legendary beatings on Nogueria. He got the choke on Sylvia, which Couture failed to do, and has beat everyone put in front of him save one questionable loss by cut. His wins might not be as flashy as Silva’s knockouts or as crazy as Penn’s submissions, but they are just as dominate.
Why do you think he doesn’t have skills on par with the likes of Silva, Penn, and St. Pierre?
I think
that most people are not discounting what he was, but that is just it, what he was. It seems that was the past
True enough, I can’t really counter the fact that Fedor hasn’t been fighting the greatest competition recently. I was more speaking to the fact that he still has a considerable skill set. While he might not justify a top p4p ranking, it’s not like he’s not a great fighter. With the Sylvia win I think its arguable the skills are still there.
Agree completely,
Fedor is/was a badass. I would just love to see him sit back & only take the top guys if he is wrapping up his career. It seems like when dealing with the UFC him/his mgmt team made such demands that they knew the UFC would never agree. Not that he is scared of anyone in the UFC, but maybe he wanted more control over his fighting now.
Eh, the “pound for pound” is mythical. There’s no way to know unless every fighter fought the same guys under the exact same conditions. What happens if Anderson Silva magically gets caught by Patrick Cote on Saturday? What happens if BJ Penn loses another decision to GSP?
How can you say you’ve “seen nothing in Fedor” to suggest he’s as skilled as those two? This sport is fighting – and Fedor does it extremely well. He neutralizes the world class skills of his opponents and does whatever he wants to do – often times winning spectacularly. As of right now, I believe the p4p title goes to Anderson Silva but in a sport whose appeal is it’s unpredictability, where anyone can win on any given night, how could you make such a prediction saying he will “never be” the best p4p. Ridiculous.
I’d give the P4P belt to a lighter weight class than heavy just because of the natural body mass index for athletes across world there will be more at lighter weights which means more diversified competition.
It would be a lot harder for Randy if he was 45 and in the welterweight division. Same as boxing, you do not see many 40+ year old men in lower weight classes, but quite a few at heavyweight.
I’d say my top P4P’ers would be:
Urijah Faber, Miguel Torres, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Fedor.
Brock Lesnar will be the HW champ of the UFC.
Maybe not today, maybe not next month… but someday.
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 23, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
And dragons will roam the skies!
“Maybe not today, maybe not next month…. but someday.”
Also, hell will freeze over, pigs will fly, monkeys will fly out of my butt, and Axl will release Chinese Democracy.
Wait – are those monkeys in my butt?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Chinese Democracy
Actually, Axl is releasing Chinese Democracy on Nov. 23, so Brock has once chance to beat it out the gate …
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
P4P is nice and all, but it’s like arguing whether Batman could beat Spiderman in a fight. Great for debates, but not really useful.
Cmon, Batman already kicked Superman’s ass when he was an old man no less! Dark Knight Returns, one of the best graphic novels EVAAAAR!!!!1
Don’t forget the Hush arc, where he basically outsmarts Superman in combat by having Catwoman drop Lois Lane off the Daily Planet, so Supes (breaking Poison Ivy’s control) is forced to resue her – says Bats: “Deep down, he’s a good person…I’m not.”
Yep. I’m a nerd.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh – the story is overrated. Same goes for The Long Halloween. Jeph Loeb isn’t that great.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Long Halloween was awesome
It reminded the reader that Batman is a detective – he compensates for lack of powers with raw intellect – he’s the 2nd-best detective in the DCU (behind The Question). Batman’s roots are in noir, so the story made sense. Hush was just fun, nothing too exciting but enjoyable.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh. The calendar thing was forced, and the ending – much like Hush – was disappointing. And honestly, could they have tossed in a few more supporting characters? I didn’t see Crazy Quilt at all!
[The problem with comic books in continuity like Hush is that nothing real ever seems to happen. You can never REALLY kill anyone, even Jason Todd, Uncle Ben and Bucky. And Hush sucks because it’s in continuity so they have to use the dumbest logic EVER to make the Batman identity problem go away.]
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Sure it breaks suspension of disbelief to a large degree, but that’s why I read superhero comics – for the over-the-topness of it. I also enjoy serious ones like Hellblazer, and when when I want actual literature, I’ll read Wittgenstein or the like.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh no he’s dead. That doesn’t stop him from coming back. And that doesn’t stop him from being dead.
There’s a reason I’ve given up on DC.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
You guys are killing me...
I stopped collecting several years ago, and you’re all making me miss the hell out of it.
Now that Marvel gave Deadpool his own series again, I’ve been in Heaven.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that he’s the merc with the mouth.
I understand this because it’s on every page.
Please make them stop.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
He worked best having the apocalyptic Cable as a foil – they brought out more facets in each other, and Deadpool didn’t grate on the reader.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And guess who didn’t pick up that run because he was sick to death of Cable from WAY BACK when Liefeld was doing X-Force? Stupid, stupid, stupid….
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Fedor
So he’s not the best p4p, but he’s easily the greatest heavyweight in MMA history. He’s beaten a laundry list of UFC fighters and never been hurt. He didn’t just beat Sylvia, he completely annihilated him.
Until proven otherwise, the logical assumption is that he’d kick anyone’s ass on the planet. At this point, there’s no evidence that he can be stopped.
Indeed – let’s put it all out there:
Besides Big Tim, when was the last time Fedor fought a true heavyweight with real skills?
- Hong-Man Choi – no skill
- Matt Lindland – middleweight
- Mark Hunt – fatty
- Mark Coleman – light heavyweight
- Zuluzinho – no skill AND fatty
- Mirko Filipović – could make LHW easy
- Tsuyoshi Kohsaka – could make LHW easy
- Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira – aha!
And that was on… December 31, 2004. So in 4 years we’ve got two fights that count – Tim and Nog.
I don’t deny that the guy is great. I just wish that the press was less about how delicious his nuts are and more about “this guy hasn’t been tested in AGES.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Oct 23, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Laughing my ass off at that "delicious nuts" comment
Fedor & his camp seem to make very calculated selections about who he fights & how much risl there is. Tim is a 6’5 walking vagina & he knocked Arlovski out twice. Easy decision.
Zactly
I used to love Fedor as much as the next guy, but I tired of him not really fighting anyone. That’s why I don’t consider him the best heavyweight in the world, much less P4P. He’s gotta fight the best to be the best. I mean, if Anderson Silva retires as the champ next year, how long can you feasibly continue to call him the best middleweight in the world before you just say “Hey, he’s not going to fight any more legit contenders, dude is done”. He would no longer be legitimately applicable.
Unfortunately, it's pretty tangled
I would concede, given that the UFC is amidst a four man heavyweight title tourney, that there isn’t a definitive number one. But being asked to choose, I would say it’s Big Nog, because he’s the champ (sort of) of the best MMA organization in the world. But again, it’s not that I don’t think Fedor is in the conversation, it’s that I wouldn’t trip over myself to name him the best heavyweight in the world, because he hasn’t done much to prove it of late.
It’s probably Fedor, but we don’t really know for sure.
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't Write Off Cro Cop
He was a serious contender then – even Fedor says it was his hardest fight. Mark Hunt is a dangerous striker. HMC has legit kickboxing skills, but not MMA. Your list still makes me sad, though…Why is Fedor fostering his own irrelevance? WHY?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm only #2?
There’s someone ahead of me?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 23, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is less than Chuck and Rampage walk around at.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
===
He said: "Fedor shouldn’t win any accolades until he starts fighting the best in the world.
"You’ve got to respect the guys like Georges St Pierre, Anderson Silva, BJ Penn, Forrest Griffin and Antonio Nogueira.
"These guys are actually out there fighting people three times a year to prove they’re the best.
====
Haha what a silly statement this is.
Fedor has fought four times since NYE 2006. Nog has fought three times in that same span.
Fedor fought Matt Lindland, Hong Man Choi and Tim Sylvia in the last 18 months. Nog fought Heath Herring and Tim Sylvia in that same span.
Choi is a big guy that can’t even pass the Korenan army physical. Lindland is a middleweight. Fedor read Randy’s book “How to beat Tim Sylvia”. I am not saying he is not good, but he is not exactly cleaning out the HW division like Anderson Silva.
How did he clean out his division? I haven’t seen Silva beat Akiyama, Mousasi, Lawler, Lindland etc…
Anderson shouldn’t win any accolades until he starts fighting the best in the world.
He has not beaten EVERY SINGLE PERSON, but he beat the top middle weights. The only one not yet on the Silva win list is one you didn’t mention, OKAMI. The guys you listed as having a lot of sucess in the minor leagues, but I don’t think they would challenge Silva all that much.
That’s really, really stupid.
Silva has beaten Franklin, Marquardt, and Henderson BADLY and all of those guys were top ranked at the time. Add in Leben and Lutter and after this weekend, Cote, and he’s basically cleaned out all available top fighters available to him. Depending on who you talk to, neither Akiyama, Mousasi, Lawler, or Lindland are ranked higher than Franklin, Marquardt, or Hendo when Silva beat them.
On top of that, Silva has fought everyone available to fight. There were a lot of top HW’s in PRIDE when Fedor was fighting Coleman and Zulu. Since the company went under he could have fought Josh Barnett, Pedro Rizzo, or Cro Cop before he singed with the UFC. Or better yet – he could have signed with the UFC where all the top ranked guys are. Silva found a place with top ranked guys and beat them all.
Silva has fought
every single person thrown in front of him & the caliber of those fighters is way up there.
Exactly, that's the problem
It was years ago. Ken Shamrock is probably historically considered about 100 spots ahead of where he is as an active fighter.
Royce Gracie is the best P4P fighter
He was whupping everybody ass in UFC 1-4. But Kimo is a close No. 2!!!!1
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
KIIIIIMMMMOOO!!
That was my guy when I was a kid.. Just a mean dude.
by Blackout612 on Oct 23, 2008 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Except there isn’t a new crop of great HWs out there yet. There are some prospects, but nobody great. So Fedor cleaned out his division, other than Barnett and arguably Arlovski, and it’s pretty much stayed clean since, unless you actually think Randy has a shot at him.
pretty sick of the p4p debate
I don’t even understand how P4P somehow became “relevant” in MMA. It might be in boxing, but MMA ain’t boxing. There are just too many ways to beat someone in MMA. I find it really hard to quantify the “science” of MMA.
About Brock, I don’t understand the hate on the guy. I never followed pro-wrestling before, so maybe there’s something I’m missing here. But whoever he fights is going to have a really big challenge ahead, isn’t that good enough? If Brock’s strengths are his size and athleticism, so be it! If he can beat a guy by sitting on him, good! It’s up to the other guy to work around the problem he’s facing. As long as Brock doesn’t use ‘roids, I’m fine with him. To me, MMA is about diversity and seeing battles I would never have imagined before. It’s not just about BJJ, kick-boxing, wrestling, etc… In the end, if he brings new fans and helps the sport grow, awesome. Dana White would be crazy not to promote him.
About Fedor, I wish M-1 would step aside. They seem to be the biggest obstacle so far, along with all the horrible Affliction B.S. They somehow seem to think that Fedor is bigger than the UFC, but really he isn’t. That’s unfortunate because Fedor is my favorite fighter; I got addicted to MMA because of him. Arlovski isn’t a real contender for Fedor, Josh Barnett is.
Hey guys, sorry I’m late to the party….
Everyone’s talking about who the best P4P fighter is, but it seems as though there are different definitions on what P4P actually means. The term comes from boxing, not MMA, and, as I understand it, it means, “if everyone weighed the same, who would be the best fighter?”, meaning if Anderson & Fedor & B.J. & GSP all were the same weight (lets say middleweight for definition’s sake) Which of them would beat all the rest?
Does that sound like an accurate definition to everyone?
If not, please let me know what you think, for in order to have this discussion, we must all agree on the same definition.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 23, 2008 6:24 PM EDT reply actions
I kind of get this argument and I kind of don't
Im generally on the same boat as NinjaCodah, so let’s ask a new question, one more relevant to reality.
Is there a person in the world who, IN REAL LIFE, can beat everyone else we know of?
That to me is the real definition of “best fighter in the world”. It’s so simple…
Im talking about through all weight divisions, including people from any sport or activity, or from any other place in your memory that you know of or knew of….
Do we know of anyone who can beat Fedor in real life?
Opinions please!
Author’s Note : I believe the distinction of “best technical fighter” is a toss up between Anderson, GSP, B.J., and Machida, and that Fedor is the “Best fighter in the world” at this time in history.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 23, 2008 8:13 PM EDT reply actions
Sure, in real life I could take him. He wouldn’t know we were fighting and I’d have my shotgun.
by Richard Wade on Oct 23, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
How long til...
We are talking about a Brock/Fedor fight??? He may not be ready now, but I’d like to see Brock get hit like Sylvia did and see what happens…I hope Randy tests his chin.
Prediction:
Brock bullrushes Randy, knocks him down due to being much larger, and sits on him, grounding and pounding til either TKO or decision.
I know, I’m probably way off base here.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
