MMA Past the Tipping Point Is Not MMA
Jake Rossen underscores a tremendous problem:
Let’s face facts: The vast majority of promoters and fans in this industry want to see a mediocre kickboxing match with four-ounce gloves. The stand-up rules, the restarts, the round durations, the illegal blows (no knees on the ground) all work to discourage ground fighting.
This is a business, and business dictates that extended stretches of patty cake inside someone’s guard is box office death. It’s why you saw Art Davie screaming for John McCarthy to stand up Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock at UFC V, why Liddell claims John Perretti told him to keep his first fight at UFC 19 standing and avoid the ground if he wanted to be invited back, and why EliteXC is currently mired in a public relations nightmare over what they did or did not say to Petruzelli about taking Slice down.
The fighters have been so ingratiated into this practice that you can have a bout between an amazing wrestler in Sean Sherk and an amazing jiu-jitsu artist in B.J. Penn decided by nearly 25 minutes of striking.
This industry rejects at least 50 percent of its own product. It’s like Hostess trying to get rid of the filling in a Twinkie. Insanity.
Insanity, indeed.
While there is no denying that many MMA fans who appreciate the sport do not extend that appreciation to every facet. And perhaps there is even a ceiling on how much the ground game will ever be appreciated even by the most ardent MMA fanatic. But while some MMA fans will never warm to the ground game, what I've mostly found is that a reluctance towards that portion of MMA is due more to unfamiliarity than revulsion. Over time, most fans grow to enjoy the ground game as they began to understand it's nuances, complexities and applications.
It is absolutely critical that promoters not incentivize fighters to avoid the ground game if for no other reason than the sake of the sport. MMA is still in its nascent stages and should not be forced to hide from itself. In order for more fans to be converted and converted fans to become more appreciative, the long education process of understanding and appreciating the ground game has to take place. An investment should be paid now so the entire sport can reap the dividends later.
The type of MMA that Gary Shaw believes in is not MMA at all. Strangely, it isn't kickboxing either. It's an incomplete portion of the game isolated by those who believe it to be the only redeeming aspect of a much wider, more diverse sport. Shaw's tactic is to trade in what the sport actually is in favor of a truncated version for short term gain. It's of benefit to no one except Shaw himself and should be repudiated at every turn.
Comments
Didn't Dana just say this
using monosyllabic and inflammatory language in about two and a half minutes? ;)
Well put, Luke. MMA is still such an infantile sport (in the mainstream) that any sort of tampering at this point really could cause irreversible damage to its growth arc.
I like Dana’s idea of the FBI getting involved. Racketeering, anyone?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Oct 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
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The authorities must be summoned here
Not Congressional-level steroid involvement, but simple RICO enforcement and protected the people who bet on this fight without this knowledge from fraud.
BTW, anyone who bet Slice over Seth should be sterilized out of sheer principle.
by subo on
Oct 14, 2008 4:15 PM EDT
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Maia vs McDonald
great one to show fairly uneducated friends.
Also one nice way to segue people into appreciating the ground game is to show them some of the rather exciting ways to proceed from standing to the ground. How can you not like slams and high flying judo style throws?
by iiowyn on
Oct 14, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
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the problem is: why would gary shaw and other promoters looking at MMA as an opportunity to make a buck eat the costs associated with introducing people to the ground game that many of them don’t understand or like?
this is a collective action problem— promoters aren’t going to invest individually in something that yields a benefit for the sport as a whole but not for them as businesspeople. the way to solve it is for athletic commissions to license and provide referees only for fights that use standard MMA rules.
by boxingstudent on
Oct 14, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
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and maybe those standard rules should do more to favor ground fighting, but that’s another issue.
by boxingstudent on
Oct 14, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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An even better observation is that in the lower leagues of MMA, the ground game consists of a guy LnP on someone else. This theory is great and all if you have a great ground game. Most people just have wrestling backgrounds. Not many have BJJ belts.
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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How did this article become against Gary Shaw?
The point of the article is that there are many promoters who pay their fighters to keep the fight standing:
"Mac Danzig said that the King of the Cage promoter used to pay people to keep the fight standing all the time.
It’s at around the 38:50 mark into the show.
Source is http://carsonscorner.podomatic.com/entry/2008-10-09T11_52_12-07_00
Danzig also talks about promoters paying fighters to stay standing and not take the opponent down in general."
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
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I don’t care if god himself appeared on that show. I don’t listen to anything from that liar Jon McCaffrey.
by Luke Thomas on
Oct 14, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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Gary Shaw is the most visible promoter involved with this and currently EliteXC is the company in the spotlight(not to mention that KotC is now under the ProElite umbrella) but yes there may be several promoters that need to be investigated for this. Just because other promoters have done it before doesn’t make it right, heck it makes all of this even more important to get to the bottom of. Maybe if an athletic commission would take a stand now that this has made it public and tell EliteXC to cut it out other promoters will as well.
by who me on
Oct 14, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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Listen to Mir
Regarding this issue I think that listening to Frank Mir disect a ground fight can really open the casual fans eyes to the complexity of the ground game. I personally do not get bored with a good ground battle if positions are changing and submissions are constantly being attempted. Frank Mir’s commentary can actually make what looks like a stalemate very exciting. I just watched the Fedor vs Ricardo Arona fight again and that was a great ground fight. Arona had no answer for Fedor’s stand up but once on the ground things were very competitive and actually very exciting. In fact at one point it appeared that Arona was going to attempt arm bar but the ref stood them up. Many casual fans would have thought this fight was boring but with good commentating it could have been viewed for what it was, a very tactical ground battle. TUF could be playing a part in the education of fans by explaining and featuring more ground technique and celebrating the art of the submission on the show.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on
Oct 14, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
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The ground game looks like a random tangle of limbs to the unintiated.
Mir does a good job of explaining it, but I also think the cage plays a part in making the cage look boring. The cage itself limits the ways to tape the fight, and the ground game doesn’t look too interesting from the standard 45 degree angle they have to shoot from in the cage.
On the other hand, rings are a PITA and I get sick of the fight constantly being moved to the middle when they get near the ropes. But the cinematography is way better in Dream.
by toxic on
Oct 14, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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Inset Post Mounted Cameras?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on
Oct 14, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
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The ground game looks like a random tangle of limbs to the unintiated.
Absolutely, and as Warhand pointed out – a good commenter explaining it goes a long way in making it interesting. I started off as the casuals now “oh they on the ground… yawn”. It was a Nick Diaz fight with Rogan explaining it that opened my eyes, and now I totally love – and understand – the ground game.
by mythbuster on
Oct 14, 2008 3:22 PM EDT
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The couch fighter wants to see blood
I think Gary Shaw and $kala are just marketing a product they think will appeal to the masses. Fat ,milk fed, man titted wanabes. Understanding the ground game and also using it requires more general skill and time commitment than the stand up. You can have really good stand up in five years of constant training. With very few exceptions you cant be a jujitsu,judo, or greco expert in that same time. Five years in Thai land you are nuts. Five years in Brazil, Japan, or Iowa you might be a purple belt but chances are you’re still blue or a senior in highschool. Some people want microwave popcorn and some want to grow the corn first.
by son of mark on
Oct 14, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
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I resemble that remark!
But what fan isn’t a wannabe? You getting paid to fight?
by toxic on
Oct 14, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
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Yeah, you can’t take what you think is exciting about a sport, minimize the balance, and expect to have a sport at all. It’s insanity. I saw this early on with EliteXC. They just don’t want to promote MMA. They want to promote a hybrid of their own creation. Look, MLB has tightened the strike zone to encourage more offense. The NFL has come down hard on physicality from defensive backs to foster more explosive offenses. I personally don’t like measures as these to favor one side of a game, but this is not the same as what it appears EXC has done with their KO bonuses. These bonuses were there to influence specific fighters in specific fights to abandon part of their game. It’s flat out wrong.
Heavy handed rules changes should be avoided. You can’t frequently adjust the rules to match the whims of a fickle audience. The unintended consequences are often more detrimental to the product than doing nothing at all, and holding true to the original sport.
by Cannon Jacques on
Oct 14, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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SI.COM:
“Rosa’s manager, Monte Cox, is one of three veteran MMA negotiators who confirmed to SI.com that ProElite regularly offers knockout, finish and submission bonuses. The others — Ed Soares and Cesar Gracie — suggested guaranteed bonuses are standard fare, though the figure Petruzelli said he earned was significantly more than what the company tends to shell out. Meanwhile, MMA Agents boss Ken Pavia said he hadn’t negotiated similar bonuses for his fighters, including one for Slice’s first opponent on CBS, James Thompson.”
“I’m now aware that ProElite has a willingness for finishing bonuses and submission bonuses, which I’m encouraged to hear,” Pavia said gleefully.
“Sometimes there’s ways, if people are asking for more money in a contract, we say we’ll give you a KO bonus to try to bump up the money for them,” Lappen said. “So it’s not something everybody gets. A lot of times there’s people who don’t ask for it, don’t get it. It’s something Gary Shaw started when he came in, and we’ve always kept doing it. I guess, all things being considered, the spectacular knockout is something fans really like.”
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
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If they want to give certain fighters more money, why in the fuck don’t they just give them more money. Leave KO out of it. Lappen doesn’t know what he’s saying from day to day. Gary Shaw thinks there’s nothing wrong with requesting fighters stand and giving them more money to do so. Jared Shaw isn’t worth wasting words on. I’ve heard no good justification for giving a certain fighter a KO bonus before a fight. It’s outrageous.
by Cannon Jacques on
Oct 14, 2008 2:03 PM EDT
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Another article with conflicting information that when you really look at it doesn’t make EliteXC look very good. Now Monte Cox is directly disagreeing with Lappen’s statements, it’s pointed out that Petruzelli’s KO bonus was significantly larger than the company normally gives and one of the biggest agents in the business didn’t even know they gave bonuses at all. Instead of clearing EliteXC of any of this it makes it look like there is a systemic problem with everything they do, particularly since Lappen points out that the KO bonuses were something Gary Shaw came up with. Shaw’s already bluntly stated that he sees no problem with having a fighter stand up and fight we can assume what the reason behind him starting this KO bonus system was.
by who me on
Oct 14, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
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Out of curiosity, why the impassioned defense of EXC’s practices at every opportunity?
by Richard Wade on
Oct 14, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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People are just bashing left and right, most do without any real evidence other than I hate EliteXC or it smells fishy, or it is Shaw, he is currupt. Either way, nothing is credible proof of any foul play. I will stay partican until I hear all evidence, and not just bash something based off of my feelings towards an organization.
Seriously, EliteXC should be investigated because Meltzer heard something!?
Seriously? If he heard something, why didn’t he say anything before. Like that is credible evidence in the first place.
I will wait for the investigation to be over, nothing will come of it, people will always label EliteXC as WWE and dirty. That’s pretty much how this whole thing will unfold.
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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EliteXC should be investigated because they are admiting to pressuring fighters to fight a certain way. The fact that Meltzer heard something is cause for concern, but not reason alone to investigate. But with Meltzer, and Seth, and all the conflicting statements, and everything else involved I don’t honestly have a reason to not investigate. Its just what needs to happen. They need to find out if things are bad. Your stance is that nothing is wrong so we should not be looking. The risk of letting things rot is much greater then looking into it.
By the way, partisan means bias to one side. Meaning you are all up on the Shaw junk.
by szucconi on
Oct 14, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
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Some of the criticism of EliteXC has become hyperbole, but fans have a right to be critical of EliteXC right now. Even if there was no illegal activity involved (and personally I don’t think there was) the higher ups at Elite violated the spirit of what mma is. If Jared Shaw or Jeremy Lappen or whomever offers a fighter a bonus with the intimation that they keep the fight standing, then EliteXC is influencing the outcome of the bout. Gary Shaw admitted this was a common practice. It’s not like random reporters are making this stuff up because they hate EliteXC.
Fans have the right to question the way EliteXC promotes fights at this point. If EliteXC is influencing the way fighters game plan then they deserve to be criticized. It’s not being unfair to ProElite, they brought it on themselves.
by Andy R on
Oct 14, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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He is one of the following:
1: A very good troll.
2: Part of, or related in some way to someone who is part of, the company.
3: Being paid to do this on the companies behalf.
I hate to accuse anyone, and I didn’t wanna write it for a while, but he joined after the fights and every post has been either, “It’s ok because others do it!” or “Who cares if they fix fights, don’t TALK about it!”
Also, the randomly capitalized letters from yesteryear are a good clue to the “trying to be internet cool”.
by mythbuster on
Oct 14, 2008 3:32 PM EDT
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LOL
1) What are you talking about?
2) I never said it was okay to fix fights.
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
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P.S.
I joined in August but have been reading BE for a year or so.
by MMASuPreMaCy on
Oct 14, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
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Maybe you are "Rapper whatever the fuck your name is Shaw Jr."???
lol, j/k!! Voice your opinions any time!
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on
Oct 14, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
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P.S. am I the first one to use that since the Dana interview, lololololol???
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on
Oct 14, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
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ahh
got me there, you joined a bit before the fights and your posts also consisted of telling us how great EliteXC is, before defending their actions.
by mythbuster on
Oct 14, 2008 3:41 PM EDT
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LUKE
good write up. i know most of the hardcore fans can easily tell the laynprayers from the guys who are constantly trying to go for something from the top or the bottom. sometimes the judges have alot to do with this, not realizing that a fighter on the bottom landing blows or going for subs is being more dominant than a fighter who is “just on top” or octagon control as they call it in the ufc. octagon control is all up to speculation and it shoud’nt be. it should be the same across the board (in a perfect world, i think)the casual fan will always think that the fighter on top is automatically winning b/c they see it as a dominant position. also, of course i have always thought the shaws were only in it for the money, i knew it the minute they signed gary who had previuosly said that mma was a fad and wouldnt last. why else would any say that and then “jump aboard”? has’nt elite folded yet damnit?
by bdw on
Oct 14, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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Maia vs McDonald is the best example of how exciting a ground fight can be. Imo, that is near the top of the list for best fight of 2008. I was in a group of 30-40 people watching that night, and they were in awe and going nuts at that fight.
So, ground fighting isn’t really the problem, imo. Paul Daley is a very exciting fighter, but he was absolutely dominated on the ground by Shields. So is this Shields fault? NO!!! It is the other fighters fault (in general, not just Semtex) for not training the ground or not having the gas tank to get back up.
Instead of “bribing” ground fighters to stay standing, the solution is incredibly simple. These promotions are private businesses, so just don’t employ the fighter if they don’t put on the type of performance you are looking for. Nobody has a right to be in the UFC or any other promotion. Now, while I don’t agree with the whole idea of ground=bad, this would be a much better solution than borderline tampering. A perfect example would be Jake O’Brien when he was initially released by the UFC.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on
Oct 14, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
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And also, whomever the match make is, they must carry a bit of the responsibility for bad fights. Sometimes you can’t see them coming, but others you can see a mile away.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on
Oct 14, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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Seriously, he picks the Sherk/Penn fight to prove his point? Really? How dumb is he? BJ wants to punch Sherk’s face in. Sherk wants to punch BJ’s face in. Both are nervous about going to the ground with the other. How hard is that to figure out?
And what industry is he talking about? I don’t see the promotions making the decision of when to stand up fighters. Talk to the refs.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 14, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
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good points.
Sherk couldn’t shoot on BJ and BJ is vastly superior striker, so why not use your greatest advantage in the fight. I doubt if pleasing the fans had much of anything to do with their strategies, despite what Sherk said.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on
Oct 14, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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Cmon...
Sherk has one strength and he didn’t use it. I gurantee he is worried about his fan appeal being that he is one of the most boring fighters in the sport.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 14, 2008 7:34 PM EDT
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Keep in mind that that STILL doesn’t relate to the issues Josh is raising. It’s not like Sherk has some highly advanced ground game – unless he’s fighting some third-rate nobody, he’s a straight-up lay-n-pray artist. Sherk doesn’t have some incredible ground game – he’s an excellent wrestler with good takedowns and good top control.
I mean, were any of you hardcore fans REALLY hoping to see him lay on BJ for 25 minutes? Anybody? Anybody?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 14, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
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Actually...
That is precisely the point he is making. Allow me to paraphrase: ‘Even though Sean Sherk’s only chance of winning was to ‘lay ’n pray’ — he forgo that advantage to exchange in strikes with a better boxer in BJ. Why did he do that? Because his lay ‘n pray style is not appreciated by the majority of the potential market.’
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 14, 2008 9:14 PM EDT
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He Couldn't Even If He Wanted To ...
Take BJ Penn down without getting nailed that is … As stated, BJ was a far superior striker and could defend Sherk’s takedowns … so he plain and simple won the fight using his striking and probably saw no point going to the ground as he was dominating while standing. The way I see it is anyways …
And if Kick Boxing was so great why does no one watch? MMA is great BECAUSE of the ground game and the versatility. As also stated, Paul Daley should go back to school, because he got schooled … I would much rather watch McDonald / Maia due to their diverse sets of skills. Yes, Daley is great standing but that seems to be the end of it …
by HankAtVancouver on
Oct 14, 2008 10:54 PM EDT
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Dude...
Get off BJ’s nuts. He ain’t a god — although that’s what Dana would love you to believe. And as for Daley — Elite XC could care less about Daley and Shields — they were just FILLER.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 14, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
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I'm with this guy ^^
Even tho BJ Penn has an amazing 3-2 record in his last 5 fights, he isn’t immortal. Let him defend his title some instead of changing weight classes.
by mythbuster on
Oct 14, 2008 11:41 PM EDT
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I love the sarcasm of “amazing 3-2 record.”
by Cannon Jacques on
Oct 14, 2008 11:52 PM EDT
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Sorry
I get a bit snarky when people talk about Penn like he was superman :)
by mythbuster on
Oct 15, 2008 12:01 AM EDT
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Oddly, he was actually discovered in a crashed meteorite in a field of pineapples.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 9:34 AM EDT
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I think that it’s slightly deceptive. Those two losses mb is talking about are to the current and former welterweight champs and he was fighting up. It’’s fair to talk about his performance at welterweight in the context of fighting GSP, but we were talking about the fight with Sherk at 155.
In his last 5 fights AT 155, he’s 4-0-1. Let’s break his record down by weight:
- 155: 9-1-1
- 170: 2-2
- 185: 2-0
- 205: 0-1
What do we learn from that? Clearly, B.J. needs to stay away from GSP and challenge Anderson Silva. He’s undefeated at middleweight and that was against a pair of Gracies!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 9:42 AM EDT
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Wasn’t his fight against Machida at heavy weight?
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
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machida weighed 220! Penn was 185 — what weight class is that?
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
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It was a catchweight. People consider it a 205 because that’s what Machida usually fights at, and it’s not like he was any bulkier than he usually was for that fight.
Let’s also remember that BJ only lost a close decision in that fight – giving up 4 inches of hieght and over 30 pounds.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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he looked allot bulkier
& out of shape, I think it was more than 220. My point is only that Penn wants to challenge himself and that’s great — This is a good opportunity for the UFC to get some extra buys. But a SUPER FIGHT it is not. I would rather watch him defend his title. I consider most of what Penn does as a rip off — Remember when he beat Hughes, he took his belt ant left town. That kind of stuff isn’t for me.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 10:06 AM EDT
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a) It’s not as though Machida ever looks like he’s in GREAT shape. The man’s a technician, not a brute.
b) There are 4 names bandied about as the best pound-for-pound fighters in the world: Fedor, A.Silva, GSP and BJ. A fight between any two of them is a super-fight.
It occurs to me that Brock Lesnar can never be a great fighter P4P – when you divide his skill by his weight….
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 10:44 AM EDT
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It occurs to me that Brock Lesnar can never be a great fighter P4P – when you divide his skill by his weight….
I suck at math – can you divide a number by itself? Cuz, ya know, his weight IS his skill :P
by mythbuster on
Oct 15, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
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Now my head hurts. Not as much as Brock’s will when Randy gets done drubbing him… :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 11:37 AM EDT
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It make sense to let a guy defend his title, forever and not let him move up because he feels like it, BUT an I right in saying you are complaining about Penn v. GSP 2? Because that could be enough to have you commited.
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 12:01 AM EDT
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He could give up his title, I suppose. I just don’t like the idea of a guy getting a title, then moving on and not defending against all comers. It isn’t fair to the others in his weight class who are trying to get the title, or at least a fair shot at it. Ya know what I mean?
by mythbuster on
Oct 15, 2008 12:04 AM EDT
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It’s a tough situation. I mean, I badly want to see St. Pierre/Penn 2, but I also want to see Penn defend his belt against the Florians and Griffins of world. Although, having typed that out it’s not such a tough choice. I want to see GSP/Penn 2 more than I want to see either of those fights.
by Richard Wade on
Oct 15, 2008 12:07 AM EDT
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Do you think the Florians and Griffins have any chance against BJ? He’s not a god, but he’s certainly a step ahead of those guys.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 9:36 AM EDT
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Not a great chance, but I’ve seen plenty of fights where I was absolutely certain one guy would win and he lost.
by Richard Wade on
Oct 15, 2008 4:16 PM EDT
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That sir, I do not accept. You’re infallible.
Well, when you agree with me anyway.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 4:40 PM EDT
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Funny. I have a similar perception of you.
by Richard Wade on
Oct 16, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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I agree 100%, but like Richard points out Title defence v. GSP v. Penn 2. For me a title defence is the right thing to do, in the spirt of fairness, but I will take GSP v. Penn 2 over fairness any day of the week.
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 12:09 AM EDT
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Yeah
Guess the UFC agrees with you guys :)
by mythbuster on
Oct 15, 2008 12:15 AM EDT
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Yaaaaaa....
I can’t wait to see Penn get out struck for 5 rounds (I hope it’s just 3). Does anybody here really believe Penn has a chance? Florian has a better chance of beating Penn then Penn has of beating GSP.
What is Penn gonna do? Stand with GSP or take him down (lol)!
Dana White loves you!
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 12:35 AM EDT
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watch the first fight. It was a lot closer then a Penn/Florian fight would be. How can you be so confident that GSP will walk through Penn this time?
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 12:46 AM EDT
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because once he pulled his head out of his ass… GSP did walk through Penn. His head won’t be up his ass this time.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 12:51 AM EDT
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Basically… you think Penn is gonna out strike GSP. Give me a break. Penn barely out struck Sherk — he has NO CHANCE against GSP.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 12:53 AM EDT
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Penn barely out struck Sherk? now you give me a break. I didn’t say I thought Penn was going to win. I just think it is a closer fight then a lot of fights and closer then you think it will be.
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 12:55 AM EDT
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The difference between Shaw and White...
Shaw rips off the average guy.
White rips off the MMA fan.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 12:57 AM EDT
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And White does it better!
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 12:59 AM EDT
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I think you are drunk and ranting now. you are starting to reply to yourself.
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 1:00 AM EDT
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How is making the Penn/GSP match ripping anyone off. I don’t see a clear contender to Penn’s title.
by szucconi on
Oct 15, 2008 12:59 AM EDT
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I think that assertion only makes sense if you hate the UFC and Dana White and by extension anything they do. Y’know, like our friend mma_dude does.
by Richard Wade on
Oct 15, 2008 1:34 AM EDT
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What did you think of Shamrock/Tito 1,2,&3? or Silva/Irvin?
I think they were examples of the kind of fights that Elite XC is trying to promote. However, the majority of what the UFC does is pretty damn good. They are, after all, the second best MMA promotion in the world (from an entertainment point of view).
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 9:42 AM EDT
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Wait, I think somebody needs to check GSP’s compustrike stats. There’s this myth going around that GSP is a GREAT striker, and I don’t know where it comes from. The guy is good – don’t get me wrong – but he’s not some elite-level guy on the feet.
Against Fitch – not a great striker – he landed 39% of his strikes standing. Compare that to BJ’s 45% standing against Stevenson. Even on the ground, GSP landed only 45% of his shots while BJ landed 78%.
I can’t find the reach online, but BJ is only an inch shorter than GSP. This is going to be an interesting fight.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 9:59 AM EDT
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What makes GSP great is that he dictates where the fight will be. Against Penn the fight will stay standing. We already saw Penn/Gsp box. Gsp won.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
by mma_dude on
Oct 15, 2008 10:09 AM EDT
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I know that they’re just silly storylines, but there’s some truth to:
- BJ is more serious than ever, and
- GSP is a little young and flaky.
Every time I hear GSP interviewed I just want to pinch his cheeks. He’s a great athlete and a great fighter, but he still seems so young and immature sometimes. (And yes, I’ve heard him interviewed in French. C’est tous la même chose.) He seems better than ever in his last two fights, but he’s still maturing as a person and as a fighter and can be a little uneven.
And if you can’t see the difference between the old BJ and the new BJ, you need glasses. The guy is focused and hard-working for once, and clearly wants to win this fight more than GSP does.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on
Oct 15, 2008 10:50 AM EDT
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Some things can be done. First of all I really, truly, can’t stress enough how sick I am of listening to fighters constantly talking about how they ‘aim to please’. It sets expectations on MMA out of proportion. When I’m watching the world cup qualifiers between Sweden and Portugal, I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the ‘entertainment factor’. In fact, if our star player even hinted that he was out there to please I’d have to slap him.
This comparison is not entirely adequate, but there is some merit to it. The aim to please mode is simply not result oriented. To say that one is aiming at a KO, or, for a footballer, to say he is aiming at destroying the opposition, is perhaps not very cerebral, but at least it’s focused on a way of winning. Aiming to please is perfectly compatible with losing. Stop it.
Some MMA fights are boring, just as some football games are boring. For me, this is trivial knowledge. Why are some fights boring? Because they lack a certain effort to finish, are very sloppy/technically poor etc. I can accept mistakes in MMA and football given that the errors are forced. I can accept that in very important fights/games the players involved get more careful and defensive. The urgency and importance outweigh the negatives in these cases.
I think that the break up rules are fine the way they are. I wouldn’t want to go back to the days in football when it was allowed for the goalkeeper to pick up a pass from his teammate with his hands. That slowed the game down and made it less technical. It could, ofc, be argued that those rules were proper football, and since we have changed them we’re not playing proper football anymore. Argue that all you want, football is still more popular and enjoyable today than it was back then. Sight.
by ununkvadrium on
Oct 14, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
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nice analogy actually. Even better as MMA and Football are my 2 fav sports. Aus over Qatar tonight 3-1!!
by Benicio on
Oct 14, 2008 5:40 PM EDT
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![A little publicity for me today in the Washington City Paper. To wit:
But listening to Kinard, it sounds like management has decided Thomas can transcend his surroundings.
"We thought we’d experiment with some different kinds of shows last year, and of all of them, MMA Nation is the only one that lasted," Kinard says. "I wasn’t aware of anybody else doing [an MMA show]. And [in April] he outperformed our normal weekend ratings by more than double. We started out thinking this has the potential to be a nationally syndicated show, and that’s still our plan. You see MMA all over the place on TV, so why not on the radio?"
I hate to be over the top with the self-promotion, but no one is going to hand me the job and career I'm after. I want to work in MMA full time and the fact is I have to make it happen for myself. Thank you to everyone who has ever shown me an ounce of support towards the pursuit of that dream.
Onward and upward.](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/54844/1244671916_m_cheap-1_small.jpg)









