Jeremy Lappen: We Gave Seth a Knockout Bonus Before the Fight Started

by Michael Rome on Oct 11, 2008 9:37 AM EDT in News Comment 29 comments

I didn't want to post anything else on this, but the situation is getting more and more ridiculous every day.

It's hard to know what to make of Jeremy Lappen. He tried to clarify his numerous contradictions today with Michael David Smith of Fanhouse.com, and instead admitted Seth Petruzelli told the truth the first time he spoke:

Regarding the controversy over whether EliteXC paid Petruzelli a bonus (or, as some would call it, a bribe) to keep the fight on his feet, I pointed out to Lappen that he had seemed to contradict himself about what, exactly, EliteXC offered Petruzelli.

Lappen was quoted by Sports Illustrated as saying that EliteXC does not give submission bonuses, while he was quoted by ESPN as saying that Petruzelli was offered a submission bonus. Lappen said both stories misquoted him.

"They're both wrong," Lappen said. "We have given submission bonuses in the past but they're not as common as knockout bonuses. If the question is, 'Have we ever given submission bonuses?' The answer is yes. But we give knockout bonuses more often. We gave Seth a knockout bonus before the fight started. That was part of the deal."

Let me make my point clear: There is no such thing as a knockout bonus before a fight starts. It is a quid pro quo, not a bonus. Imagine a company giving you a bonus for hours worked in a year before the year starts. It's inconceivable.

Though I'm sure there will be plenty of spin coming on this statement too, this is an admission of guilt. You don't pay a guy a KO bonus before a fight without the clear expectation on both sides that his job is to stand and go for a KO. You don't have to say anything for the expectation to be there.

This is going to be my last post on the topic. For me, the issue is crystal clear. There is no way to misconstrue Seth's initial statement, I will not believe a spin machine instead of my eyes and ears.

I've been sick watching people like Michael Wilbon run with this story and turn it into a "fix" for Petruzelli, and have wondered if writers like me are partially responsible for pushing the story. Perhaps. But it's also up to the most devoted fans to keep their sport clean. I want EliteXC to thrive, I want free MMA on CBS, I want there to be a place for fighters like Gina Carano, Jake Shields, and others to fight. But not at the expense of the sport.

I fully expect a negligible "investigation" that will exonerate the people involved here, but it won't matter. Nobody needs an investigation at this point to know what happened.

Update: Commenter Smoogy notes what will surely become the spin in response to this: that he only meant that they negotiated a bonus before the fight. Even if this is the case, it still reeks of telling a guy how to fight. And it's still different than having a best KO and best submission bonus available to everyone on the card before a fight.

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Umm… unless he meant they put a knockout bonus in Seth’s deal before the fight. That sentence doesn’t necessarily mean he received the bonus before the fight, it could just refer to negotiating the bonus.

by smoogy on Oct 11, 2008 2:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He says they gave him the bonus before the fight. I’m taking him at his word, but then again I guess I should know not to do that by now.

by Michael Rome on Oct 11, 2008 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re interpreting it one way when it should be interpreted the other way. He is saying they gave Seth the contractual guarantee of a knockout bonus before the fight.

by smoogy on Oct 11, 2008 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, I’m taking him directly at his word. He said they gave him the bonus before the fight. And it’s STILL bad to write in a bonus possibility only for a KO before a fight, specifically for that fight.

by Michael Rome on Oct 11, 2008 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your explanation is a very plausible explanation for what Lappen meant, but he could have said it in a much clearer fashion. Like just by saying, “We weren’t offering Seth a KO bonus in his fight with Rosa, so we negotiated to have a possible KO bonus put into the contract for his fight with Kimbo,” or something like that.

Either way, I’m surprised Lappen would say something this stupid on Friday, a week later.

By now Lappen, Seth, and Shaw should have had a conference call with some PR people, found a reasonable thing to say (that makes sense) and they should all be saying the same thing, word for word.

Just like when Dana and Lorenzo can tell you the same exact thing, whether it’s how relevant Fedor is, or what the name of the stock car racing league they would be starting if they were retarded, they always say the same thing word for word.

It’s been a week, Elite should have their heads out of their asses and be saying the same thing.

by Phildo on Oct 11, 2008 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just like when Dana and Lorenzo can tell you the same exact thing, whether it’s how relevant Fedor is, or what the name of the stock car racing league they would be starting if they were retarded, they always say the same thing word for word.

As when Dana and Lorenzo were asked about the economies impact on their organization, they both came out with the same line: friends, beer, pizza.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Oct 11, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly, it’s been a week. All of the people involving should be saying the same thing, verbatim, and it should make sense.

What Lappen said doesn’t make sense, and it is not what Seth said on Inside MMA (which I believe is taped on Thursday) they should all be on the same page by now.

by Phildo on Oct 11, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

" We gave Seth a knockout bonus before the fight started."

Is a whole world different from “we negotiated a clause into his fight contract that if he got a KO/TKO, he would get an additional bonus”.

Seriously, do you think that he is that stupid that he can’t figure out the English language enough to say what he means, without ambiguity? I’m with Rome, I’m taking it for exactly what he said.

by LiuLang on Oct 11, 2008 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I honestly interpreted it the way smoogy did when I read the quote.

by starvin on Oct 11, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rhetorically speaking, its pretty ambiguous

by smoogy on Oct 11, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you, but it shouldn’t be left to people commenting in a blog post to interpret the words of a man running a large company. In regards to this whole issue, he should say what he means once and stick by it. Without talking to one sports outlet after the next, contradicting the last comment he made in an effort to “clear things up”.

by LiuLang on Oct 11, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fuck it.

Too much of their investment was in one stock – Kimbo could not fall without their company suffering, and going out the way he did, it imploded. It’s like the U.S. economy in microcosm, amoral cocksuckers included.

Heads should roll for this, but unfortunately it will probably be Carano, Shields, Rogers, et al. who will suffer the most from their employer going under.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Oct 11, 2008 2:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Seth’s original comments were the truth. Sorry, but shit like that doesn’t just slip off somebody’s tongue.

There needs to be some kind of Commission above the State Athletics Commission. So when shit like this happens, it doesn’t take a shitload of bloggers to demand an investigation. Therefore, we should get the truth rather than listen to 50 different sides of the story.

by steveoc24 on Oct 11, 2008 2:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Whether it was criminal or not is a fine line but it definitely seems to be very unethical. The sad fact is that it still hasn’t sunk in to Lappen’s head that giving a knockout bonus but no submission bonus is a very sketchy way of doing business and is obviously going to influence how a fighter gameplans his fight. Could someone please explain to Lappen that having only a knock out bonus is the problem because that’s apparently beyond his comprehension. Of course the guy can’t even keep his story straight from interview to interview so it shouldn’t be a surprise that he doesn’t get this either.

It just doesn’t seem like anyone running EliteXC (past or present) understands just what “Mixed Martial Arts” actually means or gives a crap about the integrity of the sport. I understand that as a company what is important is the ratings but if they are going to say it’s a sport then they need to at least treat it like one.

by who me on Oct 11, 2008 3:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You definitely aren’t “partially responsible.” Wilbon is an idiot if he thinks this was fixed for Petruzelli. There is no gain for anyone in that circumstance. There wasn’t enough time for any money to come in to make paying Slice worth it to throw the fight. And EliteXC obviously doesn’t gain anything from a Petruzelli win.

by Mike Fagan on Oct 11, 2008 4:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Anyone remember Shamrock refusing to take Cung Le down? Do you think Shammy was given a similar deal, in order to keep up the action/ put Cung’s skills on display?

by Heenan on Oct 11, 2008 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think that was more of Frank being a cocky bastard, and thinking he could survive long enough to get Cung to gas and eventually KO him.

Frank said from the beginning that everyone would think that he was stupid to stand with him, but he was going to do it anyway.

by Phildo on Oct 11, 2008 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. His game plan was as solid as all the people that have made the statement “I’m going to get in his face and bring the fight to him” (regarding A. Silva).

by Heenan on Oct 11, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know.. This is just making me angry, because it seems as though no one is motivated (Florida Athletic Commission or otherwise) to find out the truth behind this whole mess. EXC is out in public, continually backpedlling, and it’s being taken as nothing. Absolutely ridiculous..

by Blackout612 on Oct 11, 2008 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Disgusting.

Whether or not a bonus was actually given before the fight, or they were just “negotiating,” I think it seems clear something was up, and the promoters did not want Seth to go to the ground, and they probably made it clear to him as such. It’s really hard to watch what we love slowly get twisted by these deviant money mongers. But Rome is right, it’s up to the fans to keep the pressure and make sure the sport stays clean.

by pud333 on Oct 11, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lappen

“We gave [Petruzelli], and I’ve been pretty clear every time I’ve been interviewed, we gave him a knockout bonus,” Lappen explained. "And it wasn’t ‘of the night,’ or anything like that. It was before the fight. We gave him a knockout bonus as part of the deal.

"That’s what we do. In our contracts, I’d say a number of our fighters — maybe one-third of the fighters, or half of the fighters — get knockout bonuses in their contracts.

“Ahead of time they’re told that if they get a knockout, they’ll get the money afterward. It’s a pretty common thing in the industry. A lot of companies give knockout bonuses.”

mmajunkie.com

by mythbuster on Oct 11, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If it’s such a common thing how come no one on any of the MMA sites has ever heard of it? Of course that still doesn’t change the fact that offering only a knock out bonus is obviously trying to influence a fighter’s gameplan no matter how many times he says it.

by who me on Oct 11, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, you

I also find it troubling that a knockout bonus is offered at all in a specific circumstance. For the UFC, outside of TUF (which has its own individual set of circumstances), the entire fight card itself has three available awards. To me, it’s just as evil a deed to seperate Petruzelli from the field and say “look, you’re going to get a large bonus after the fight if you knock him out”, which is clearly in the hope that he’d stand and Kimbo would put him on his ass.

I really don’t care for the distinction that he got it before or after. It’s the same illegal, unethical, underhanded action either way.

by Blackout612 on Oct 11, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To the UFC’s credit they have an awards for wins by any method, heck fighters can win fight of the night even if they go to decision in the fight. Even on TUF it’s a finishing bonus not a knock out bonus.

I do understand how important ratings and catering to the casual fan is to the business side but if you are going to call it a sport then you need to maintain the integrity of the actual sport, if not then your just doing a version of pro wrestling. Lappen and the Shaw family seems to be wanting to do “extreme” kick boxing"instead of MMA and Jay Larkin of the IFL said the ground game was like watching gay foreplay, why are these people even involved in the sport if they don’t even like half of what it contains? This isn’t about the UFC needing competition it’s about companies led by men who don’t understand or care about what is involved in the actual sport, if you don’t love MMA then you probably shouldn’t be promoting it.

by who me on Oct 11, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about the BJJ fighters?

I want to ask a question about how this will affect other fighters coming into EliteXC or fighters already in EliteXC.

Why would any BJJ fighters want to fight for EliteXC now knowing that it’s clear from EliteXC’s policies that they don’t appreciate what they do or what they can offer the sport?

If they don’t offer submission bonuses in contracts like they do knock-out bonuses that is saying to me we don’t want BJJ fighters in our promotion.

That says to me we won’t pay BJJ based fighters as much because you fight a certain way and we don’t want that.

by mattman73 on Oct 11, 2008 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ahem..

..what does Jake Shields think of this, right now? He’ll likely never knock someone out, but his percentage of victory via submission is astronomical. It’s gotta sting..

by Blackout612 on Oct 11, 2008 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I would give them a pass if it was a stoppage bonus, but specifying the TYPE of stoppage – there’s yer problem.

by mythbuster on Oct 11, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s made me wonder if that’s one of the reasons why Nick Diaz hasn’t submitted anyone since he signed with EliteXC, his last submission victory was against Gomi and all he seems to want to do now is stand and exchange with guys. His brother has won by submission three times in the same time frame. I know Nick seems to like to stand and bang with guys but it does seem odd that I can’t even remember him trying to submit another fighter in EliteXC.

by who me on Oct 11, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I sort of understand that people want EXC to survive, so more fighters have a place to fight. That point makes sense. The problem is that an organization engaging in these tactics casts a shadow on the other fighters. Are people going to start asking whether or not the Gina Carano or Jake Shields fights are run fairly? The fans shouldn’t have to ask these questions. There should be some confidence in the integrity of the promotion. Certainly, there is always going to be cheating of some form or another. But when a promotion with the prominence of EXC isn’t able to satisfactorily answer questions about a very serious allegation, they should be investigated until the people that support the sport with their own money have answers.

I’m really getting tired of making these rants, but it just infuriates me when I keep hearing different accounts of this bonus structure. It’s evident that there is no structure or consistency in regards to how EXC applies bonuses, and that’s a problem in and of itself. And dammit, why isn’t Shaw Jr. gone by now.

by Cannon Jacques on Oct 11, 2008 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs